Goldman, Howard, 12 November 2007



1









Howard Goldman
Marist College
Poughkeepsie, New York
Transcribed by Wai Yen Oo
For the Marist College Archives and Special Collections


Goldman, Howard, 12 November 2007



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Transcript –
Howard Goldman
Interviewee:
Howard Goldman
Interviewer:
Gus Nolan
Interview Date:
12 November 2007
Location:
Marist College Archives and Special Collections
Topic:
Marist College History

Subject Headings:
Goldman, Howard


Marist College - Faculty


Marist College - History


Marist College (Poughkeepsie, New York)


Marist College - Professor Emeritus


Marist College - Social Aspects

Summary:
Dr. Howard Goldman discusses his time at Marist College as the Athletic Director. He talks about the
evolution of sports on Marist College with Gus Nolan. Howard Goldman additionally talks about the development of
athletic facilities and clubs on campus.






Goldman, Howard, 12 November 2007



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00:05

GN:
Good morning. We're having it here this morning with Howie Goldman, the Professor Emeritus of
Marist College. Today is November the 12
th
. It's 11:15 in the morning. Good morning, Howie.
00:20

HG:
Good morning, Gus.
00:22

GN:
Howie, could you say something about … first of all, your name and where you were born?
00:28

HG:
Howard. Goldman. No middle initial. I was born in the Bronx. 1930. Grade school and high school
in the Bronx.
00:41

GN:
Where did you go for grade school?
00:43

HG:
In P.S. 36 at the Castle Hill area in the Bronx.
00:48

GN:
Castle Hill and Westchester (?)
00:52

HG:
It was east of Westchester. I remember the intersection but it was right on the Castle Hill area.
01:02

GN:
Very interesting. And then you grow up in that area as well?
01:05

HG:
We grew up just outside of Parkchester.
01:07

GN:
Just outside of Parkchester. And where did you go for high school?
01:11

HG:
Went to the Bronx High School of Science.
01:13

GN:
And what year did you go in there?
01:15

HG:
1944. Started and graduated in ‘48.
01:21

GN:
At that time, did you know anything about the Marist Brothers? Did you know about Mount Saint
Michael’s?
01:27

HG:
The only connection I had with Mount Saint Michael or Cardinal Haye was that I competed against
them in track and cross country. Usually at Van Cortlandt Park.
01:40

GN:
Where do you go to college?
01:42

HG:
Where do…? At that time, it was the Cortland State Teacher’s College. It’s now State University of
New York, College of Cortland.
01:51

GN:
And how did you wind up there?


Goldman, Howard, 12 November 2007



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01:55

HG:
Strangely. (laughter) I was in the Bronx High School of Sciences you may know. It was loaded
with the potential doctors and scientists and et cetera, et cetera. I was involved with track and cross country for
four years. And indoor track and thought I wanted to be a track coach. Not too much aware of teaching physical
education but coaching track was my goal and Cortland was one of the few places I applied to. And of course,
the price was right at that time ’48. It was a four hundred dollars a year and four hundred dollars a semester to
go there.
02:40

GN:
And then you went right on there to New Hampshire?
02:43

HG:
No, when I graduated from Cortland, I had a choice of being drafted because the Korean War was
just ending. Or going into the Navy so I went to O.C.S. You know. In the Navy for three years, four months and
twenty-eight days.
02:58

GN:
How well you have that down.
03:00

HG:
Every veteran does. And strangely enough I was a special service officer because of my
background in Cortland. And I ended up teaching prisoners, doing their G.E.Ds. I coached basketball and
baseball while I was in the Navy at a prison.
03:21

GN:
And so that's really what steered you then onto … one would think having gone to the Bronx High
School of Science that math and science would have been a direction. But your life experience put you more
into the athletics.

03:36

HG:
I was. I knew what I wanted to do because after graduating from Cortland and going into service.
After the service, I went to Indiana University for an assistantship where I got my Master’s. And then later went
there for six consecutive summers where I got my Doctorate. New Hampshire was where I started teaching. I
didn’t go to school in New Hampshire.
04:00

GN:
Oh, I see.
04:02

HG:
I started teaching at Plymouth State College in Plymouth, New Hampshire.
04:07

GN:
I meant to ask earlier. Do you have any siblings?
04:10

HG:
No.
04:12

GN:
So, you’re an only child?
04:13

HG:
I was an only child.

04:16

GN:
Then the doctorate came later on?
04:19

HG:
In ’63. It was granted in ’63 actually.


Goldman, Howard, 12 November 2007



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04:24

GN:
And that’s from…?
04:25

HG:
Indiana University.
04:26
GN:
OK. That has skipped me entirely. I didn't realize you had anything to do with …? Let’s move on to
employment. How did you learn about the job at Marist?

04:35

HG:
Well, I was teaching at Plymouth State. And I got a phone call from Bill Murphy. A Brother who
was Brother William Murphy, asking me if I was interested in interviewing for the job. At the time I was in
New Hampshire, I was teaching Physical Education majors. I was teaching methods courses, activity courses. I
was coaching soccer, freshman basketball, and tennis. The idea of coming to some place where I could develop
a program was very attractive so I came down for an interview with Linus Richard Foy and Bill Murphy. And I
think Gerard Weiss was there in the interview at the time because he was the interim athletic director.
05:26

GN:
Yes.
05:27

HG:
In ‘62.

05:29

GN:
Yes, we had a small athletic program in 1962.
05:32

HG:
So the idea was … The premise was that if I was hired, I would come to start a soccer program. Be
the Director of Athletics and develop a Physical Education program for freshmen and the sophomores.
05:52

GN:
The point of Bill Murphy is interesting. How did he find it? You were up there. Was he searching?
06:01

HG:
He was searching for somebody to come take over the program or develop the program that he
called Indiana University and my name was in the potential employment list of possible places they're going
to… New Hampshire was the first job I had. It was… I learn my trade there. I did everything but sweep the
floors and I even did that sometimes.
06:31

GN:
Did more of that here at Marist.
06:34

HG:
Right. Even counted jocks here. It was not an environment that I wanted to stay in for several
reasons. We had two seasons up … It was winter and the fourth of July. Having come from New York and
having been stationed in New Hampshire when I was in service, I found the people of New Hampshire very
insular. If you weren’t born there, you were not a native. In fact, the guy I had worked with John F(?), I thought
he was an outstanding individuals finally said to me on the day before I left. He said to me, “Well I guess after
six years… I guess we're friends.”
07:22

GN:
Well that was a kind of breaking down the walls. Yeah, yeah. That's… Saying something more
about Bill Murphy? Do you have any clear recollection…?


Goldman, Howard, 12 November 2007



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07:30

HG:
Yeah I had very clear recollection of Bill. He always reminded me. I can’t think of the name of it.
But there's a Fourth of July fireworks that spins around and sets off sparks. It's a wheel of some sort that emits
sparks. And to me, he was one of those people. He didn't spin around. But he emitted sparks like ideas. Yeah.
He was an idea-man. Very congenial and but he was throwing off ideas left and right. And he was responsible
for the Upward Bound Program. Yes. He was involved with Teacher Education. I think … I don't know if he
was in the Marist Abroad for a while but I don't think there was anything he didn't have some piece at Marist
College.
08:23

GN:
Did you find him easy to get along with?
08:24

HG:
Very. I had played golf with him. He used to play at the hospital. Yes. We used to get passes
cause… I used to let the inmates under control to come down and use the pool. I gave them permission. And
they in turn... They would send us floor passes to use the golf course at the Hudson River State Hospital. So I
was always in demand or interest when the summer and the spring came around to use the passes. And Bill and
I used to sneak off once in a while just to sort of lunch we go play a couple of holes and come back.
09:03

GN:
I've heard that sometimes he threw the club further than the ball.
09:09

HG:
He had moments.
09:14

GN:
He definitely had his moments. Another side-question? Did the religious factor have anything
adverse in your coming here? Did you ever feel unwelcome and … your Jewish background?
09:24

HG:
Not in any manner and means. My wife, at that time … My first wife was Catholic. And so was my
second. So the religious factors never entered into … In fact I have to tell you the side story about that. When I
came here, there was a company in Rochester called Champion, very big. But they were very small company.
At that time, there was a two brothers did all the traveling for them and they were both Jewish. And when they
came here constantly and we bought Champion stuff. His name was Phil. He told me a story about an athletic
director in high school on Long Island who was thinking about applying for the job at Marist who is also
Jewish. And he said to this guy. “Phil,” He said, “They'll never hire me because I’m Jewish.” After I got the job
Phil said to the athletic director. I think it was Sachem High School in Ronkonkoma. “Hey, guess who got the
job?”

10:36

GN:
Interesting. Let's come back to your professional career here now at Marist. When you came on
board as the athletic director, was it clear to you that was going to be it? Coming as a teacher or was it a dual
role or how is that?

10:50

HG:
It was a combination of many things. Yes, I was supposed to develop the athletic program as a
Athletic Director. Start a physical education program and teach it and do whatever else was necessary at the
time.


Goldman, Howard, 12 November 2007



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11:09

GN:
And of course the salary was …

11:13

HG:
Well. I started teaching in New Hampshire. I think it was for forty-seven hundred dollars in 1957. I
came here and had a tremendous raise. I think I got seven thousand dollars to come in. Which was… wow.
11:33

GN:
Right. And then, of course matching the salary with the facilities you were asked to work in.

11:28

HG:
Well the gym which is now Marian Hall, was it. It was the gym with two locker rooms with
showers, column showers. On the print shop was in the back of the gym. Brother Tarcisius was there. There
was a laundry on the other side. And there was a stage when I came. And the first things I did… in order to
have enough room to actually teach classes for the basketball team to practice was to have the stage removed.
Of course the gym itself was only the length of a basketball court after the stage was removed.
12:17

GN:
You had to have baskets in there as well.

12:22

HG:
There were baskets in there. And there was also parquet floor which kept coming up in spots.
12:28

GN:
I recall some of those days. It was not as finally polished when you came. How about getting into
some specific sport? Did we have a crew in those days?
12:40

HG:
When I came, there were three sports. It was basketball, crew, and weightlifting. Frank Swetz who
taught Math was the weightlifting coach. Joe Catanzaro who taught Art at Poughkeepsie High School was the
crew coach and Tom Wade, who later became the Dean. He was a basketball coach while I think he was also a
resident assistant while at the time. So he was coaching basketball and a dorm supervisor. And I ended up the
soccer program when I came here because I had started on in Plymouth State. But I also coached J.V basketball
for three years. And that was it. When I came, the other thing we had … Bill Murphy had schedules for me
unbeknownst to me, half a dozen soccer matches when I arrived. And also put together what he thought was a
scheme for a cross-country team. I had to find two faculty. Two people to coach cross-country. I don’t know if
you remember Joe Sullivan who taught English. His son, Colin works here now at the McCann and Bob Lewis
coached cross-country for me.
14:20

GN:
Well you had some staff then. What was the facilities for the crew? Where did they…

14:27

HG:
They worked out at the Poughkeepsie Boathouse. Until the boathouse was done, I think we
dedicated that in ’64 or ’65. The new boathouse. Bill, I know, has been working on it for a long time. Bill
Murphy getting that done. So we dedicated that… so we had a facility to work out at that time.
14:52

GN:
Are there women on campus yet?
14:53

HG:
No.


Goldman, Howard, 12 November 2007



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14:54

GN:
Okay. We’ll have to wait until women comes in… how they […]
15:01

HG:
I was one of the people who was opposed to women coming on campus not because of the sexual
issue. Because I felt it would diminish the pool of men available for athletics.
15:14

GN:
Yeah. I think that's probably true today. But the campus having swung to something like sixty-forty
or…
15:23

HG:
They were still more men now than when I came here. Twelve hundred and forty or something.

15:32

GN:
Was there a football team?
15:34

HG:
No. There was not. Not yet. Two students decided after a period of time and some pushing for…
Father James Driscoll, Bobby Finn and Dan Hickey were the movers and shakers behind the football program.
15:50

GN:
Okay. And then when the football program came, did they play on campus? Or…

15:55

HG:
They couldn't. There was no field facilities. Initially, they did a couple of games on campus. We
sort of combined. It wasn't Leonidoff Field at the time. It was just a field right … I did buy a set of combination
soccer and football goals. And the football operates …were attached to the soccer's crossbar. And they did.
They did play some matches. They also played down the Stitzel Field in Poughkeepsie.
16:31

GN:
And I think at that time we had the announcer with Bob Norman. Yes. He announced […] play to
play activity.
16:39

HG:
Bob borrowed my ski jacket. Because of the cold weather. We didn’t have any heat in the stands.
And never returned it.
16:50

GN:
Well when did the Leonidoff Field come about?
16:54

HG:
Well, the exact date I don't know but it was probably in the early 70s. Dr Leonidoff was a heart
specialist in Poughkeepsie. Who was approached by the school or so.
17:13

GN:
It was affiliated with the Marist Brothers, you know.
17:15

HG:
The school needed something like that. And just as a noteworthy topic, we have a new field now.
And driving by three or four times a week, I saw all the trucks and motor vehicles all the work going on. And
all the hundreds of people working there. And the field, when we got the turf, it was delivered by a truck. There
was Nilus Donnelly, one maintenance worker, and myself and my physical education classes that laid the turf
on the field and unrolled it. That was, that was the course of the new Leonidoff Field.


Goldman, Howard, 12 November 2007



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17:56

GN:
We thought that was a lot of money and guess going into attempt. This is a strange contrast to what
has happened this past summer…
18:03
HW:
I think it’s amazing, beautiful.
18:04
GN:
We might get back to that later. Then, when we did have the field, we could begin to focus our
activities on the field.

18:14

HG:
Well, soccer and football. Later on, we had an interest in lacrosse. The club team for a while then
we developed it into varsity.
18:26

GN:
Could you speak about that? Moving from club to varsity to divisions. How would you see that?
18:32

HG:
Well, football and lacrosse. Football started out as a club. And they were called the Vikings. Red
Foxes weren't fearsome enough. For Father Driscoll.
18:51

GN:
Rather a name that somewhat etched in history here.
18:56

HG:
Yes, the only priest I ever wanted to punch.
19:00

GN:
Right. He meant well.
19:04

HG:
Yes. But at any rate, when we felt that the team had become viable enough to warrant varsity
status, then it was incorporated into the athletic program. For example, lacrosse had a good lengthy run and
people consistently coming and interested in the news. On a couple of people who I hired to coach […] one of
them was a local soccer coach, Jeff Banke. He was one of the stars on the lacrosse program because he played
lacrosse in college. But on baseball which now has a fairly established work never became a varsity sport until
quite a few years later. Because there was always some two or three people interested in baseball. We’d call a
meeting. You know. And the meeting show the guys who showed up with the pitchers. You got yours and
nobody else. Baseball will never really took off even when Ron Pietro was the Athletic Director.
20:19

GN:
Just to come back to football. There’s one question that Linus Foy asked me to ask you. And it had
to do with the uniform rather. Getting those…

20:34

HG:
We had those from what was then Cardinal Farley Military Academy in Rhinebeck. Since it’s
closed. It has closed. It became a rehab place where young people who had alcohol problems. And it was run by
the Archdiocese. But Cardinal Farley was going out of business. And Father Driscoll managed to convince the
powers that be over there to pretty much donate what they had. In terms of uniforms.

21:15

GN:
Did we have to get new names? Or did we have Cardinal Farley on the…

21:20

HG:
Actually they were uniforms with numbers.


Goldman, Howard, 12 November 2007



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21:24

GN:
So they worked. Another sport. Basketball. You mentioned some guys here now. Tom Wade first
and then Ron Pietro.
21:33

HG:
Tom Wade was the coach when I came. And when I was hired, Linus just gave me the notion that
he wanted to build up the certain programs. Among them, one of them being basketball. So… And I had
requested permission to hire people not only to coach but I wanted people to teach. I was setting up a physical
education program that would run for freshmen and sophomores and it was pretty much mandatory for quite a
few years till it became an elective program. So I knew what I wanted was somebody to teach and coach. And
the first person I hired was Paul Arold. Tom was a nice person but not strong as a coach who didn’t have what I
felt was important in terms of coaching to build a program. So Paul Arold was a student of mine at Plymouth
State college, graduated from Plymouth. Went to Indiana to get his master's degree and … Actually I took him
out there with me for him to be interviewed when I was defending my dissertation. So we drove out together
and he went to Indiana when he graduated. I hired him to coach basketball and crew actually. Because Joe
Catanzaro was starting out also. And right after Paul was hired, I knew we had need for another teacher of
physical education and somebody else to coach. And I interviewed Ron Pietro. Actually before Paul, but I
didn't have the wherewithal to hire both of at the same time I said. But I knew eventually ... I was going to get
Ron Pietro at Marist College.
23:38

GN:
Did he play for Manhattan?
23:39

HG:
He played at Manhattan in basketball and baseball. He’s in their Hall of Fame in Manhattan, New
York. Outstanding both are... But when I interviewed him, he was just working, just finishing up his Master’s at
Penn State. And I knew. He was going to be here somehow or other. And he ended up … Paul had to give up
basketball to concentrate on crew. And Ron took over the basketball program.
24:12

GN:
OK let's focus on you for a minute. What part of your life is teaching? What part is coaching? What
part is an athletic director? Is there a divide there? A third-third-third?

24:27

HG:
Not really because I consider coaching a form of teaching. I said. I always considered coaching the
highest form of teaching, the time you spend, and the level of people you are dealing with. … The athletes that
you’re teaching on the field are like the elite in the classroom. That always has been my attitude.
24:53

GN:
At this point, this is soccer for you?

24:55

HG:
Soccer. I also coach freshman basketball. Okay. And at Plymouth, I coach tennis too but we didn’t
have a tennis program for a while.
25:04

GN:
But did you not have actual academic classes?


Goldman, Howard, 12 November 2007



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25:06

HG:
Oh yes. We did. We had physical education activity classes to start with. And then later on after
about seven or eight years, six or seven years I don’t remember exactly, I started what is called a coaching
certification program here because New York State was going to require non-Physical Education majors to be
certified. They had to take a principles course, a science course. First aid/care of injuries courses. […] In the
coaching field. So I started the program, later Ron and Bill Austin who came in. Helped me with those classes
and they also brought in classroom course besides the anatomy, kinesiology and the principles of coaching. We
also developed the course called Sports in Society which became very important to me.
26:11

GN:
Was that in the core program?
26:12

HG:
No. It was an elective like all of our courses were electives. To get back to it, I came from what
would be physical education-slash-athletic background. But the philosophy of Cortland has stayed with me and
very ingrained that teaching. […] is the important factor at the school. I think the athletic director's job starting
at’67 took an enormous amount of time because nobody had really done it before so…
27:58

GN:
Did you have an office?
27:00

HG:
Yes, I had an office about the size of this room. In the corner of the gym.
27:07

GN:
Okay. Of the Marian Building?
27:09

HG:
Yes. It was in this room corner. And then there was not all my office. It was the storeroom for the
basketballs and this … yeah everything. It was a place to put everything in there. […] So. I operate early. But
there was a picture on the wall, one of our students. Charlie (?) was his name. He was on the track team. Charlie
heard about my thoughts about the new gym and he drew a picture of a physical education gymnasium
building. The athletic (?) building. And he put a date on it and put it on the wall. And every year and to wind
through the day we put a number up. For the athletic program, we had to we had to have usually schedule other
teams. Yes and we had to get into conferences. I spent time meeting people, going to ECAC meetings. At the
time we weren't in the NCAA, we were in the NAIA. And I decided later that we should be in the NCAA. So
for a couple years you were a dual members. And then we got out of the NAIA. And we’re in a conference in
the northeast conference for a while. We were in several of the smaller schools before that.

28:41

GN:
What’s the most developed team at the time? Is it soccer?
28:42

HC:
What do you mean most developed? Then?
28:43

GN:
Here, for making scheduling and travel and.
28:48

HG:
In the 60s, it was basketball and then soccer and cross-country. Crew had just several things. It
wasn't big program or it was the: Dad Vail that they go to Philadelphia. They didn't have the Head of the
Charles or the head of the Schuylkill at the time. They just had a couple local things. One other thing I should
mention about crew, Bill Murphy was instrumental in getting them in Mid-Hudson Schoolboy Championships


Goldman, Howard, 12 November 2007



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here in the late 60s. He even used the railroad bridge and he had people putting up 4 by 8 sheets of plywood
over the lane numbers on a railroad bridge … using maybe half.
29:35

GN:
Again his fingers […]
29:37

HG:
Yeah it was a national championship.
29:40

GN:
An entirely different subject: how about the building of the McCann. How did that come about?
What part to did you play in it? When did it first begin?
29:49

HG:
It began when I got here in ’63.
29:51

GN:
Seeing that picture on the wall.
29:55

HG:
Seeing what I had to work with. Because basketball couldn't play at home. We played our home
games at Lourdes. Now we even played in the IBM gym. We played at Poughkeepsie High School. In fact, the
IBM gym had fan-shaped backboards not the square backboards that are required. We had to get permission to
play with fan-shaped backboards. But when I got here and realized that if we wanted any kind of a healthy
viable program that was competitive with other schools, we had to have facilities. Not only that we wanted
teach physical education properly, we had to have a facility. So several years after I got here, I had this thought.
I talked to and said, look we got to have something. And it started out with McCann wanting to build a pool for.
31:03

GN:
That's another story because the other pool was going to be condemned.
31:07

HG:
Right. The outdoor pool. This was ’75. We hired Bill Wagner to […] but we knew we were getting
a building. But in the early 70s, McCann… Jack Gartland actually felt that the local swim clubs needed a place
like the CYOs and the other schools. Recreation swimming. He sort of told Linus that he'd like to develop a
swimming pool. I had several talks with them and I said, “Well. Why not let the pool shell up but then do the
outer shell for the other side and we get enough funding we’ll have a complete facility?” As luck and
happenstance will have it. When they saw that pool situation was developing I think, Jack Gartland decided that
the whole thing should go and make one big comprehensive building. So Ronnie who was with me at the table,
he was the basketball coach and he also, after a couple years, became the assistant athletic director. Because I
knew that eventually … I wanted to teach and be the Chair or Dean or the Head of the Department for Physical
Education and not worry being the Athletic Director anymore. So Ronnie was in training as it were and we
travelled. We went to Rhode Island. We went to New Hampshire to Massachusetts, Connecticut looking at new
facilities and incorporate. And we sat down with a list of what we’d like to see. And we incorporated these
ideas into what then became the McCann center. And of course we had Paul Cannon, one who was hired on as
the architect. He was very receptive. He was very congenial about ideas that we had. And what we did in what
we finished up with in ‘77 – we opened a gym in ’77, April ’77 – it was at the time a state-of-the-art facility.
Because it was a long-span situation, big open space. Curtains across. So that the space could be divided into


Goldman, Howard, 12 November 2007



13

three separate gym areas, each one bigger than what was the old gym. I had an indoor track laid out on this […]
It was the same size as the track at Madison Square Garden.
34:10

GN:
A lot of trips around […]
34:13

HG:
It was sixteen […]
34:18

GN:
Were you specialist in the pool design or did you bring other people for that?

34:23

HG:
We had a pool company help us with that. The company was up in Albany […] We had somebody
come down named Clayton Beshrew who gave us ideas about that. We also had Bill Wagner who we hired
knowing that the thing was going to be built, Larry was hired the year before. In ’76, he came on as swimming
teacher, swimming coach, an aquatic director.

34:58

GN:
Okay. Moving on, let's talk about the divisional move. How do we both Division three to one and
not to two?

35:06

HG:
We did move to Two. We were in Two. We talked about being in the NAIA which is a smaller
national conference. We moved into the NCAA and at that time, we got into the NCAA, there were only two
divisions in NCAA. It was called the college and university division. Later on, they moved to Divisions 1, 2,
and 3. When we finished McCann Center, I stepped out. We were in the Division 3 in the NCAA. I stepped out
as athletic director and Ron took over. He felt with the new facility that we should eventually be Division 1. But
we did go from Division 3 to Division 2. We were in Division 2 either three or four years. I don’t know exactly.
And I think it was three. In that time, we competed in Division 2 … so successfully. Actually the soccer team
played in the NCAA to be the real first team in the college ever played in the NCAA tournament in the Division
Two National Champion. We didn’t play in the National Champion. We played in the first few rounds. But
Ronnie felt that with the new facility moving into Division 1 was his call and getting some financial help. None
of the teams had scholarships at the time. All of the coaches have to go play. Because […] was the director of
admissions for financial aid. […] Of course we had some other financial … We had some … a couple of
Brothers who play soccer.

37:07

GN:
Yes, I'll give you that a lot of the latest out of they have brothers from far and afield. They weren’t
exactly from Poughkeepsie. Did all the teams move?

37:18

HG:
No. Football still is not really Division 1. It’s 1AA(?) or whatever they call it now. But every team
was moved into Division 2. And then all the teams with the exception of football moved into Division 1.
Football stayed where it was for a while.

37:45

GN:
OK. The best while moving big time really started with the coming of Smits. Yes. Rick Smits
coming in. And there was some story about a coach who came on for a very short person of time. We’ll pass


Goldman, Howard, 12 November 2007



14

quickly through this.

38:03

HG:
Ronnie … who's an outstanding person. I can’t say enough good about Ron Pietro. He was given
an ultimatum by Dennis that you had a choice that you can do both athletic director and basketball coach but if
he did not have an outstanding couple of winning seasons, he had to make a choice of whether he wanted to
stay as basketball coach or athletic director. He didn't like the options. […] In ’83, he decided he had it. And his
choice was abetted the situation as it evolves. So in ’84, I came back as interim athletic director just for the year
till they found somebody. So Ronnie left and went to Alaska. And the new coach they hired was a coach from a
junior college across the river. Mike Perry had been an outstanding coach in Ulster. He then got into some
difficulty so he went overseas and coached in French semi-professional, professional basketball. The guy knew
his basketball. But the committee that decided to hire the new coach chose not to involve myself or Ron in the
selection process. So they hired this individual against our recommendations and I've had several strong people
who told me certain things. I passed them on but we’ll leave it at that. At any rate Mr. Perry came […] and he
recruited Rik Smits and several other foreign players. With them, one French boy, Alain Forestier. Come
October, he was asked to leave.

40:51

GN:
Right. I remembered […] the change of direction in basketball. Then they got someone from
Pennsylvania?

40:59

HG:
They got Matt Furjanic. That’s his name. […] He came in and he had these good players that were
recruited. Did a decent job. And Rick was among these people right now. Furjanic lasted only two years
through other reasons which […]

41:29

GN:
Right. We had not had great success with the coaches in those years. Smits of course was giving us
some national prominence. He was 7’2” …

41:40

HG:
7’4”. Yeah. A good student by the way.

41:44

GN:
Yes, I had him in class.
41:46

HG:
Nice, young man.
41:50

GN:
Right and years later, I would say that my average students made more than a million dollars a year.
Of course we had to use the mathematical things about that…statistics…you know, which always lie. Moving
ahead to other sports. What about swimming? Hiring coaches…has that been a…we’ve had one coach?
42:11

HG:
We’ve had one swimming coach for the last twenty…
42:14

GN:
Twenty-two years? Yes.


Goldman, Howard, 12 November 2007



15

42:16

HG:
And the guy's outstanding.
42:21

GN:
He is. Probably, that’s the winningest team we have on campus.
42:23

HG:
Exactly. He, Larry is an outstanding young man. He’s from Hyde Park. He went to Roosevelt High
School. And unfortunately, he didn't go to Cortland and he went to Springfield which is the second best
physical education college in the country. But again, Ronnie and I, we met with him and we realize it was going
to have a swimming pool. We’ve got to develop a team. And this guy impressed us and continues to.
42:53

GN:
Good choice. It was really an excellent choice.

42:56

HG:
And he also taught. He also taught in the Physical Education program. He did a very good job and
he's a very hard worker in terms of recruiting. Very skillful in the terms of coaching. Of course, he had just
developed the Marist swim club, which was one of the reasons why Jack Gartland believed a pool was a
regional necessity for local swim clubs.

43:25

GN:
That’s one of the reasons why the McCann Center is very open to the public as the Marist facilities.
For that reason. Moving on, sailing. Whatever happened to sailing?
43:33

HG:
Well…
43:35
GN
: It sank. (laughter)
43:37
HG:
We had it when I came. Couple of sailboats. Bill Murphy was instrumental in getting sailboat kits.
That actually built a sailboat. And there were a couple of very enthusiastic students who are from the area. Felt
that we could compete with these cadets I think they were. And we joined MAISA, the Mid-Atlantic
Intercollegiate Sailing Association. I got two faculty members into coaching sailing. One of them was Jack
Kelly. The other was Andrew Molloy.
44:19

GN:
Dedicated guys.

44:20

HG:
They worked it out. They travelled with the team. And they also helped the team… I set up sailing
not only for intercollegiate club type of thing but also, it's a class because I felt that as a recreational activity,
sailing would be something people can do. You know once they left school. They not gonna play football
forever but things like golf, sailing, and tennis are recreational that would stay with them.
44:52

GN:
Come back to golf. Do we have a golf team?

44:54

HG:
No. We did.

44:55

GN:
We did have one. We don’t have one now? We don’t have a coach for them or?


Goldman, Howard, 12 November 2007



16

44:59

HG:
No there doesn't seem to be any push for it either. We had. I forgot the name for him… Michael
Shurkus. He was the golf coach. I helped a little bit in as …
45:15
GN:
Bill Murphy wasn’t a coach? He was gone by now.
45:18
HG:
He was gone. He had … coached the […] at the hospital across. Later he went over to College Hill.
His name was Charlie DeStefano. And he helped. He also helped out with the golf team. And they had, I guess,
they had four or five good years and then when Michael left, he went to New England so… It's sort of put out
and hadn’t really pushed…
45:52

GN:
So a question about administration and supporting you. You worked with two presidents.
45:58
HG:
Yes.
46:00
GN:
How much time with Linus? How much time with Dennis?

46:02

HG:
I came in ‘63. Dennis came in ’77 …’78. And then I was effectively not the director like Ronnie
was. […] I was just around the time Dennis came. My contact with Dennis essentially was his interest in the
soccer program we were doing fairly well. We had some fairly good young players and had the Naitza brothers
from Sicily- Sardinia actually. Brought over here by Paul Ambrose. Wonderful, wonderful young men. And we
were quite successful in Division Two. One year we were 16-1. One year, we were 14-1 playing the NCAA
tournaments, both of those years. In fact, one year we hosted it. But Linus, within the bounds of financial
limitations, […] developed the program and go for it. And I felt very well comfortable with him, knowing that
what I was doing in both physical education and athletics was academically responsible and academically
sound.
47:42

GN:
Okay. New subject but old for you. Soccer at Marist. Your interest in it and what we’re talking
about is participation, inter-collegiate activities. You wrote a book on soccer, didn’t you?
47:55

HG:
Yes, I did. I wrote a text for… not for coaching so much in terms of soccer competition more in
terms of teaching physical education classes. Actually it was a paperback for Barnes and Nobles a long time
ago.
48:19

GN:
I remember it being spread out in the library. They proved[?] so they made corrections of it … […]
48:26

HG:
Yea. It was actually a how-to book for physical education classes. It was a very basic text.
48:37

GN:
If it weren’t for Don Dranell, you’d probably have been the first faculty to have published.
48:48

HG:
I still have one copy hanging around.
48:51

GN:
Yeah did you have a particular year in soccer that stands out more than others? Or a series of?


Goldman, Howard, 12 November 2007



17

48:59

HG:
Well actually there are several. As I said the NCAA tournament. There was also the year we played
here. We hosted the ECAC regional tournament. And the Naitza Brothers were playing at the time.
49:20

GN:
This is after the Leonidoff Field?
49:22

HG:
Yes, we did have the field there. We played with two colleges from New Jersey. One was, I think it
was, Montclair. At any rate the game was a tight game. One of our fastest players was on a breakaway and
Mike (?) came out and Danny Wakeley. It was at this north end of the field where this happened. I was on the
sidelines on the west side. I can hear […] break all the way across the field. The goalkeeper, the referee said to
him, you gotta get out of here. We got a penalty kick. The ambulance came. Danny wouldn’t let the ambulance
take him to the hospital until Zenone scored a penalty kick that won the game. The next day we had to play
Absalom from New Jersey. I don’t even know if they're still in existence
50:40
GN:
Suits me. I have no idea.
50: 42
HG:
And it was one of those... we were very tired from the day before and it was a tied game again.
Zenone, he took a shot that rattled off the crossbar … the goal. Came out and from out of nowhere this
midfield, his name was Scott Carter hit the ball on a volley so hard that the goalkeeper just couldn’t hold on…
“what was that…” It went in and it hit the back of the net so hard that it rebounded out. Almost like it never
went in. It was so quick that. It was the winning goal and we won the ECAC tournament. With that shot from
Scott Carter. Last year's Scott Carter called me. His daughter plays lacrosse in college. And the team she's
playing for came up to play Marist. So he came up and I said. I came to have a visit with him … reminiscing
about goals.
52:00

GN:
But what’s interesting is that not only do you remember the game. But you know the people who
were involved in it and you can just... as it were give me the names of those people without even thinking …
[…] coming out perhaps to refresh this thing. We’re moving the end of this because the hour is running on. Tell
me what what's changed at Marist besides buildings and the ballfields. Could you comment on what has struck
you most now… since your retirement?
52:36

HG:
Well the change. Obviously, the facilities have gotten really lovely. The new field is amazing. It’s
the thought that went into the underneath of the stands and the locker rooms and bathrooms and concessions.
There’s a lot of very good planning. Going into that I was very impressed. And the field itself. The size of this
facility does not indicate that football is […] I don’t know how much longer it’s gonna be here. This is a soccer,
lacrosse stadium in size. Football. Regardless of their record, it’s having a tough time getting games. They are
playing so far out of their league right now. It's damaging, I think. And the MAC football program is on the
way out. There’s only three or four teams playing MAC football.
53:46

GN:
The last two weekends. Just got a game but we’ll take though.


Goldman, Howard, 12 November 2007



18

53:52

HG:
Of course. I mean. Jimmy has been hit with a schedule that was inviting me to play first five or six
games away against very strong team. And just picking up teams that are at this level. Very difficult for him, I
think. The program itself I think, Tim’s philosophy, is very much. That of a Division-1 athletic administration.
You know, like come back with your shield intact and on it.

54:33

GN:
Alright, play well.
54:37

HG:
No you don’t play well. Win. Yeah, well. Playing well and winning don’t always coincide. You can
play…
54:45

GN:
Get killed if you have to but win at all costs. Well that’s something. In your prediction, where is
Marist headed? Give me your twenty-year …
54:55

HG:
I would be looking from somewhere else. I may be around.

55:03

GN:
But the college will be here?

55:04

HG:
The college will be here. No question about it. I think … the future is in men’s and women's
basketball. That's where the putting the money. There’s where the emphasis is. I think the baseball program has
a great facility. But I really don't think they’re attracting enough baseball players back in the heyday.

55:32

GN:
It's hard for a New York team to play serious…

55:37

HG:
Baseball in the spring is lost. The fall is the best time to play baseball around here. Really. And
they have to travel … the expense in no sooner or later. I don't know what I can’t really foresee what’s going to
happen with the economy. But if the price of fuel keeps going up and inflationary rate keeps rising and the cost
of everything gets outrageous, things are going to be cut. I don't think they could cut baseball but they may
have to go back into a lower level of participation.

56:17

GN:
Nevertheless Marist’s position physically will probably guarantee its…

56:24

HG:
I mean it's a great campus. I mean here the kids come here and they look at this place and they say
wow. You know. My grandson is here. He’s a senior this year. But you can't help but say, “Whoa what a lovely
place this is.” Dennis has done an outstanding job building buildings and developing facilities. Soccer. I think. I
don't think that Matt, the present coach is going to be here. I don’t think anybody’s going to coach as long as I
did, thirty-four years.

56:59

GN:
Okay. I want to ask you about that now. Your time here was thirty-four years, thirty-five? Thirty-
five years? Looking back on it was it worth it?


Goldman, Howard, 12 November 2007



19

57:08

HG:
Oh, it was infinitely worth it. I loved every minute of it. Some people have a job but I had a
profession and I had love. Every day was... I really like what I'm doing.
57:23

GN:
Have you attempted to go anywhere? Did you have an office.,.?
57:26

HG:
I was in the… (?)
57:32

GN:
Going back to the Bronx.
57:38

HG:
Well there was a point where things got from my point of view, you have to understand, I’ve
always been a teacher of physical education. Than the coaching was very important. The kids were always very
important. But the winning was an added thought to everything. The winning was great. I wanted to win as
badly as anybody. But I wanted kids to learn and grow. You know. And soccer is a player's game. It’s not a
coaches’ game. What we do in practice is what we do in teaching. When we get out of the field, there’s no
timeouts. Kids play and if they haven’t learned other practice, that’s my fault. If they have to learn from the
games, it’s their fault. So I got less enamored with the philosophies that developed here about winning. You
know. It became… After Ronnie left, we had three athletic directors in succession to Ronnie. Colleary, Eugene
Doris, and now Tim Murray. And the winning became more important than development.
59:17

GN:
And you would feel that you were happy when you were here to be able to make that choice that
you know …
59:23

HG:
That's what I get out of athletic administration. Division 1 has too much in that realm and without
scholarships. You’re dead.
59:34

GN:
Yeah Okay. Any parting word. Something you would like to have changed?
59:42

HG:
Nothing I had control over. Field of Leonidoff sooner... than we had one. For myself, … no, it was
a good run. I enjoyed the setting up the classes that I taught and directing these things. I think we had a fine
faculty. For somebody in the college area or in university area, when you think about athletics and physical
education, it’s always been off to the side. I never did. I was from ... I was involved as the faculty member in
the […]
01:00:27

GN:
And you are voted various significant positions on the faculty which proved that you were
respected and taken on… Nice talking to you, Howie. Take care.