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Patricia Adams (Part I)

Marist College
Poughkeepsie, NY
Transcribed by Vanshika Bagaria
For the Marist College Archives and Special Collections














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Transcript – Patricia Adams


Interviewee:
Patricia Adams (PA)
Interviewers:
Roxanna and Theresa Downs (RT)
Interview Date
: 28 November 2018
Location: James A. Cannavino Library

Roxanna:
00:02

Good afternoon. This is Roxanna and Theresa Downs on
the 15th of November, 2017 and we are interviewing lovely
professor Adams. So professor Adams, what was your
childhood like growing up in North Carolina?
Patricia Adams:
00:18

Well, I grew up in the mountains of western North Carolina
in a town that's now become very well known, Asheville,
North Carolina. But when I grew up there, which would be
in the 50s, it was still a small city, rather sleepy and they
never did any, urban revitalization. So that means that the
old buildings that were the old library, the old theaters that
were built in the 30 state, and that's one of the reasons it's
become a very popular place for people to move today. But
growing up in the 50s, the thing about growing up in the
mountains, it was southern, but it wasn't southern the way
the deep south was. I did grow up in the segregated south,
but the mountains, many of the people, mountain people
were Republican and they didn't have a history of
plantations and that kind of thing that in the other parts of
the south.
Patricia Adams:
01:09

So I feel like I grew up both with a southern influence. My
parents were both from the south. My father from, the
Piedmont of North Carolina. My mother's family had a
farm in the mountains. My grandchildren would be the
seventh generation that has that farm. So I felt like I had an
experience of, of mountains and, and actually my father
was in the US Forest Service and loved the wilderness. So
he did a lot of camping and hiking. And I remember


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growing up hearing him often say, oh, can't you hear the
wild it's calling you. So I, from early on I had a great sense
of the outdoors and nature.
RT:
01:42

Well, that is profound in the wild. Okay. Moving on then.
What did you know about the civil rights movement
growing up and did it impact you or your family in any way
and the community around you as well?
PA:
01:55

Well, I went to, and I'll talk about this a little bit later, but
not extensively. I went to Duke University in 1960 so that I
was a freshman in 1960, 1960. And I'll talk about that more
when I'm speaking to the group. Things were very much
like they were in the 50s. Things had not started to change,
but there was certain rumblings about things going on. Now
I did grow up, as I said, in a segregated town. I went to a
segregated school and my contact with African Americans,
which was small and population in the mountains actually
tended to be typically, we had Sarah who worked for us and
she was an older lady that, came once or twice a week and
the buses were segregated. And I remember once, actually I
knew it was wrong, but I didn't verbalize what was the,
cause it was all I knew. And I remember once wanting to
give my seat to a woman, she was clearly coming home
from work cleaning and she, uh, she said no, I think she
was afraid she would get in trouble if she sat in the middle
of us. So without verbalizing it, even as a pretty teenager, I
knew things weren't quite right. So then when at Duke,
that's when the green spore is sitting. Some of the early
protests were starting, then I participated. But I can't take
any credit for making any difference or doing anything
particularly brave.
RT:
03:15

Okay. Well, how will you describe your college experience
at Duke and all the other various, institutions that you were
enrolled in?
PA:
03:23

I can call Heinz 57 cause I want so many different schools.
I started at Duke and I was here for two years, which was a
very tough, but really a good school. The people in the
south call Duka Yankee school because it wasn't all


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southern, UNC was the southern school. But I was lucky I
went there on a full scholarship. But I remember the first
semester taking zoology and taking some other courses, I
was terrified that I was gonna lose my scholarship because
it was so tough. and my first exam I had in zoology, I didn't
fail, but I made, you know, like 65 or something. And I
knew if I didn't do something about that, I would lose my
scholarship when I couldn't stay at school. So it was kind of
terrifying.
PA:
04:11

So I do remember being very, challenged and I figured out
how to study and I learned and did to, I actually met the
man that I eventually married John Adams. He was in law
school and I was a freshman. So there was an age
difference. So, that also impacted my stay there, but I felt
like I had a wonderful education and a good start. The
Asheville public schools were fine, but I would say
mediocre really in terms of, intellectual thought and
challenges. Then I spent a year in Heidelberg on my own. I
didn't go with the program. This was the sixties I was sort
of rebelling and going off, you know, had visions of
hitchhiking and being barefoot in Europe. But I did go to
Heidelberg and took all my courses in German and tried to
stay with German students cause I wanted to learn the
language.
PA:
04:58

I have no German background, but I was in the American
field service, I was an exchange student and I was sent to
Germany. So that, that my interest was there and I knew
some people there. Then John and I did marry, and we were
living in Manhattan and I went to NYU and I finished at
NYU going at night. So it took a while. In fact, I didn't
finish my undergraduate work until our second child was
born. So as a mother and going to school at the same time,
and then I had, didn't have enough yet. So I went back to
the City University of New York and got a master's in
comparative literature. So each, each school was different.
And I think all in all I had a really good educational
experience.


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RT:
05:45

Okay. So, you mentioned something about the civil rights
movement so the next question is where you a part of the
social and political movements of the 1960s, the civil
rights, anti-war, feminism, any of those that ring a bell or
might have impacted your life.
PA:
06:02

Well, I'll tell you, I'll also talk about those movements that
were sort of growing as I was growing and I will be honest
with you. As I said, I didn't, I did, I did march on
Washington Square. I did some, but I didn't, I can't pretend
to be particularly avantgarde with that or particularly brave.
When the movement was really started and the Vietnam
war started and things were very active in and around New
York. By then, I was a young mother with two children. So
I can't say I did, I actively participated in, I mean I did in it,
but I can't take credit for doing anything particular or
special during those years or during that era. Now, women's
movement again. I mean, I, I attended what was called
consciousness raising groups. I did a lot of personal things,
but I didn't do anything that would count as something
particularly public or political or active in that sense.
RT:
06:56

Okay. you mentioned your husband John Adams, and so
just, you know, did you always share similar politics at the
time or, you know, were you at conflict with each other at
some point?
PA:
07:11

Well that's interesting because actually we did and I don't
know if we instinctively were attracted to each other
because we both came from very liberal democratic family
backgrounds. And, um, I think it's interesting, this is an
aside, I grew up in a, in a home where my father thought
that Franklin Roosevelt Hung the moon because he,
according to my daddy, saved everybody from the Great
Depression and he helped start the forest service and things
that were very important to my father. But he clearly was a
very strong Democrat in our home. But I'm one of five
children and two of my sisters became strong Republicans.
So you never know what's going to happen. But now I've
been wandering, so I forgot your question exactly. Did you
always share? Oh, share things with John? Well, I


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mentioned earlier how my father loved the Wilderness and
I spent a lot of time out of doors and close to nature.
PA:
08:01

And John grew up on a farm in upstate New York. So, he
also felt very close to nature and, and lived an out of doors
life even though he was born in Manhattan, his family
moved up to the Catskills when he was very young. So, in
that sense we shared, an interest. And I would also say this,
a family tradition in both families was, I don't know a
better word than just cause oriented. John's father was a
great supporter of trade unions and the worker, I mean his,
his mother and father were immigrants from Ireland. So,
they work very hard here and they supported the worker.
And again, my father was a wilderness person. He was
also, my parents were actually very liberal in thought they
weren't out on the streets protesting, but I think they really
did believe in human rights. That was the atmosphere in
which I grew up. And so John and I did have that very
similar base love of nature and the outdoors. I am being
committed to a cause. I didn't want John, although he was
in law school, to join a Wall Street law firm and make a lot
of money that really wasn't what I was in. And he wasn’t
either so it worked. He did work on Wall Street for three
years, but even that he knew he wanted, he wouldn't stay.
He wanted to, to move on to other things.
RT:
09:15

Okay. Well that actually transitions really well into our
next question, which is how did you come interested in
environmentalism?
PA:
09:26

Well, again, that partially is because, well not partially, but
I think the base of that would be because we both grew up
loving nature, believing in the out of doors. And as I said,
John started at Cadwallader I was still going to school. I
thought of being a teacher. I majored in Comparative
Literature, so I'm a literature person. Um, but I think we
both felt that we wanted a life of a purpose. And that's not
to denigrate anybody other's choices. But that was what we
wanted. John left the US attorney's office to work at, I
mean, the Wall Street law firm to work at the U.S attorney's
office where he was a prosecutor and he found that in the


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long run, depressing. He felt bad. He was in the drug
enforcement era and he just got, so he, he felt bad for the
people he was arresting, you know, and it was something
he didn't want to continue to do.
PA:
10:19

Some people in that field stay as prosecutors or they end up
as defenders. I mean they, but they stay in court, so to
speak. He loved being in court. He loves standing on his
feet. He loved arguments, but he knew he was quite
unsatisfied. And I'll say this later as well, environmentalism
with an ism didn't exist in the 1960s. So I'll go in to how
the NRDC got started. It has to do with storm King. Um,
and he knew and we both knew. I don't think we ever
doubted for a second that this was something we both could
dedicate our lives to this work for the environment. So that
was good.
RT:
10:54

Okay. So, what role did you play at the founding and the
initiatives of the natural resource defense council also does
the NRDC
PA:
11:05

Right. Well, I will also expand on this during our talk, my
talk, um, I know I didn't go with John into the office so to
speak, but when NRDC was first founded, he was the first
employee. And, I'll refer to this to the, the group that hired
him knew that it was very important to start a public
interest law firm, which means the lawyers would represent
individuals who had concerns about the environment or
groups, but they wouldn't charge. So, where's it that they're
going to get money? Well, people like John would have to
raise it. I mean, you have to go to foundations and go to
individuals. So, we had, we had just had our third child, our
third child was born December 31st John Started January
1st. And so with three children in a one bedroom apartment
in New York City, we agreed we'd take this chance and see
what was gonna happen.
PA:
12:00

And, with this idea, it was still just an idea and John was
told, we think you should make about $30,000 now go out
and raise it. Meet people. I mean the people who had this
idea had wealthy friends, they were connected to Ford


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Foundation in a way. But, but we just, you know, I let
people often say, how could you do that with those three
children and you know, and you didn't know what was
going to happen. I think part of that is just being young and
ready to try things and I didn't feel guilty or bad for missing
out the question you ask about women's movement, civil
rights not being that active in them personally, I felt this
was an area that I love, could be committed to and I could
really help in. And although John was a professional, he
was on the letter head, we've got to make that clear.
PA:
12:45

But he and I were partners from day one and we had, one of
the ways that John developed the organization raised
money, got donors, was to bring them home. And I had
guests and people, and friends, children. And it was that
kind of our relationship, that kind of partnership. But again,
I wasn't in the office and I wasn't on the letter head. So it
was a partnership that we worked together to build NRDC.
RT:

Okay. You mentioned that at that time is when you had
your third child. So how did you manage motherhood and
this activism and you know, joining the environmentalism
cause and all of that and you know, could the children be
involved in the NRDC in any way and were they involved
in the environmental issues that you were facing


Well, our daughter was five and then the second child was
three and Ramsey was just born.
PA:
13:37

So they're a little babies really. And um, I actually went to
school and I did work part time at the UN for, I don't know,
now when I look back, I don't know how I balanced all
that, but we, I will say John's mother and father lived in
New York City and she helped me with the children. I went
to school at night primarily. So I could do those classes.
And then, you know, we didn't have an AU pair [unsure]
and we didn't have anybody live in. We we hired, you
know, when I look back, I remember there was a wonderful
young woman. She was all of the fifth grade, but she was
our babysitter, you know, in the afternoon, take the kids to
the park. So, I would say I was juggling, uh, different


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things and uh, um, but, uh, but it, it worked out. I don't, you
know.
PA:
14:26

Okay. So, how was it working so closely with your spouse,
especially at the NRDC? Were there any challenges? Any
advantages? And these [endeavors? inaudible] that, of
course there were a lot of challenges. John and I have been
married now 54 years. So we've survived. And in some
ways, one of the biggest challenges was when John was
asked to write a book about his experience. That's the, I
brought an extra copy if you don't have it, the forceful
nature that we wrote together. And John said, well, I won't
do it unless Patricia and I do it together. And that was sort
of emblematic of our life together. So, that was a challenge
because it, you know, writing together and deciding what
should go in, what should be kept out, how it's going to be
worded. But we worked pretty closely.
PA:
15:10

I did most of the interviews and we discussed how we were
going to do the book. Now over the years, I will say in
great complements to John, even when he was on Wall
Street and his coworkers were staying until 10 or 11 o'clock
at night, he just didn't do that. Jonathan was always was
home to be with us for dinner and to be with the children.
He did a lot of traveling, but that was understandable. And,
I think that we, we were partners, not just in building, an
NRDC came very high on our priority list, you know, that
was the, what we wanted and needed to do and things
related to that. But I think that the combination of
commitment to that and commitment to family got us
through and the challenges and the good times and the bad
times. There are hard times as well. But that's true in
anybody's life. I mean that's not unusual that it's true.
RT :

Okay. What were some of the most memorable cases
you've had at the NRDC and how were you and your
husband involved in these cases?
PA:
16:11

It's there. I would say this, there are more interesting cases
and then also memorable cases that went on for 17 years
with corporations that aren't there or memorable. Important


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but not interesting to talk about cause it was years in court.
But um, the, the first case and, and again I will go into
more detail is, is, is the talk going to be recorded? Cause I'll
go into storm king and things like that or maybe not.
RT:

I don't know. I'm not sure.
PA:

Well that was one of the first cases we're going to build a
Con Edison. What's going to build a pump storage plant
down? Do you know where storm came in? Oh, are you
from the Hudson Valley or in New York or, (reply) I'm
from Nairobi. Kenya. Oh, so and, and you Teresa from
New Jersey, New Jersey. Well, storm King is a beautiful
mountain in the Hudson Highlands, just south of here. And
Con Edison Electric was going to build a pump storage
plant there to pump up water and during the night and then
let it race back out and turn the turbines.
PA:
17:03

Well, there was without, I'll go into this more at the, in the
talk, but that was the first big case. And NRDC represented
syndicates and, and people that lived in the valley as well
as the Hudson river fishermen, and they were able to stop
that plant. That was a very big case, obviously. Other cases
that are interesting. In the 1980s, there was an effort to
prove, to establish a nuclear test ban, this doesn't sound like
it's environment, but it was in Russia under Gorbachev and
the people from NRDC became friends with the scientist in
Russia. And we agreed. I say the we, the loyal, we,
everybody involved, not just me and John, that you could
show the difference between an underground nuclear bomb
test and an earthquake. The Americans said, we're not
gonna sign any treaty cause there's no way to monitor this.
PA:
18:02

And without going into a lot of detail, this went over a long
period of time and we believe Paul would say, what? This
isn't even an environment. Where is NRDC doing it? The
answer was if we have a nuclear bomb or war, we won't
have environment. So, so they weren't, it was during
Reagan's administration and they did not just because of
NRDC, but because of a combination of things. The
nuclear test ban agreement was signed. What will happen in


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the future? I don't know, but that was a very important case.
I'm going to talk about this as well. It's a case of [unclear
spelling] alour, which got a lot of attention in the late
eighties as well about a, a chemical used on apples that was
particularly dangerous for young children and toddlers.
That was a case in NRDC is known for. I could go on
more.
PA:
18:51

But a lot of these cases had to do with, with air, water and
food, you know, pesticides on food and safety of food.
Those are the, the areas that they were interested in. And
NRDC has a lot of scientists as well. It's not just lawyers,
it's law and science there. Wow. (Reply - So combination
of the two biggest things.) Yes. And I was just with John,
again, this is interesting. I don't know if it would be
highlighted as the most important that thing NRDC has
done, but we were out in, in southern Utah where there's an
area, it's actually a million acres called bears ears in the
Canyon lands in southern Utah. And President Obama
nominated that for, or chose that to be what is called a
monument, a national monument. Presidents can do that.
And Trump has said, no, we want to cut that, shrink it way
back. We think it's too much. We want to have oil and gas
drilling there. So that's the case we're involved in right
now. And in fact, there are, I think 15 or 16 lawsuits filed
since Trump became president to try to protect the air. I
mean the various agencies that protect the air. And I'll
mention that too. And I'll also mention the fact that they're
20 lawyers in that department, which is much bigger than it
ever was. And 15 a women, women are great litigators by
the way.
RT:
20:16

Great steps towards equality right, Okay so, speaking of
women, were there any women in the environmental
movement that you looked up to and will you tell us about
any of them that you particularly found very strong and that
really influenced you.
PA:

Well, again, I'm glad. I think we're on the same line cause
things you're asking now like elaborate on when I talk
because that's one of, I'm gonna start off by talking about


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the women in the environment. You have women who were
older than me when, uh, in, in 1970. I mean, I was in my
thirties, but had not what they would do in terms of looking
up to them in terms of environmental causes or activity.
There wasn't much. However, I will talk about a woman
who, and Franny Reese, who I also mentioned who was
part of Marist College. But Beatrice Duggan wrote a letter
initially to the New York Times saying that the destruction
of storm king was, was horrific.
PA:
21:12

And it was a beautiful landscape known throughout
America. And that, and what she did, and I'll talk about
this, she signed her maiden name to protect her husband.
She was afraid if she put her married name and he was a
lawyer on Wall Street, he would sort of be, get into trouble,
maybe fired. She wasn't sure. I looked up to her for her
bravery. She wasn't a lawyer, she was a woman probably
born, you know, around 1910 or, you know, so she was
older, but, it was very brave of her to step forward. And
then the other women that I admire were six years younger
than me. Usually they, these were women in the, in the, in
the year I would've graduated, well, I graduated from 64
would have been my class. And women who graduated in
70, 71 things had changed tremendously already in college
and more and more women were lawyers. So the new
lawyers that came to NRDC during that period who were a
little younger than me and were lawyers, did amazing work
in the early seventies and then more and more women as
scientists and lawyers have come to work in the
environmental world.
RT:
22:15

Okay. So you said that Beatrice Dugin signed her maiden
name too, you know her project so that they wouldn't come
after her husband. Did you by any chance, encounter any
situation that you had to follow that specific route?
PA:
22:32

You mean in order to protect John in that sense? Yeah, I
don't know that I did any, I can't think of anything in
specific enough to relate that. I felt that he, that Johnny,
he's a real scrapper and I don't think he ever felt he needed
protection other than times that worried what might


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happen. There was one, actually this is a little off, but not
totally. One of the things we were concerned about was
overdevelopment of wilderness or areas that were wooded.
And there was a lake near where we lived up in the
Catskills and it was privately owned by a small hotel and
the hotel basically went out of business as a hotel and it
was, I don't know, I don't even think it was 108, I think it
was like 20 or 30 acres and they were going to put in 400
homes in that area.
PA:
23:23

And we, and John and I both said what 400 little houses on
this tiny lake, which was a private like that, like drained
into a state lake that drained into a river. So, and they didn't
have any plans for any kind of septic system or anything
United. So we work to stop that and what we, what we got
then was a big reaction from local people there. I, the one
person looked at me and said, you have ruined my friend's
children's life because the friend had owned the property
and wanted to develop it, that the hotel owner and a, we
weren't physically threatened, but we were worried. We
were sued, familiar dollars. And I remember sitting in the
kitchen with the children, these little children, and this
would be in 1971. Um, we were literally eating Bologna
sandwiches. That's what I remember. And I heard on the
radio that John Adams is being sued for $1 million.
PA:
24:16

And I thought, well, might as well be 10 million. We don't
have a million. What are they going to do? But that was
definitely hostility. And looking back, I realize
environment was new and people needed extra money. It's
not that different today in many areas. You know, they saw
a source of income, New People coming in. The destruction
of the environment was not taught, but this was progress.
So I would say that that was one area where we both felt a
bit threatened. We turned out okay, we're still there. And
that the property was bought and rezoned so that there are
some houses on that lake, but not 400.
RT:
24:53

Okay. Okay. Well that's a good step towards you and the
environment. Okay. So you mentioned earlier that, while
you were writing books and stuff like that you, your


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husband said, I'm not writing it without my wife's presence
and contributions. So when did you start writing and you
know, when was your first publication published? Were
there any challenges, any ups, any downs, all the nitty
gritty?
PA:
25:21

All of the above. Yeah, but we started in 2008, I believe
when we were asked to do the book together. And I sort of
joke and said he spoke, she wrote, Hey John, it was John's
story. And so, he talked to me a lot about what it was like,
sort of the same things you're asking me. The things that I
would ask him. He knew and was participatory in every
case and supported people. John's theory about work and
organizing, NRDC was hire the best people you can and let
them go, let them do what they can do and support them.
He was not a micromanager. So, I would interview these. I
did 150 interviews. I interviewed a lot of people. It was
wonderful. Most of these people I knew, I had seen, I had
seen them more on a personal level and they told me about
their professional life and their cases.
PA:
26:13

But John's narrative followed through. We've talked
through every chapter and, and we had a very good editor
to help us the do it because John is so generous. He wanted
to thank everybody I've ever seen. And I said, you know,
nobody's going to read a book with just lots of, thank you.
So, we've got to figure this out. So, we worked well
together, I think, and it was published in 2010, and it's
called a force for nature. And, it's, I, understand it's a thick
book with a lot less, not that thick under 300 pages, but it's
a lot of cases and law. But each chapter is a little story to,
you know, so I think it can be interesting.
RT:
26:51

Oh Wow. That's lovely. Then. So, we talked about a few,
presidential administrations that you ran into that gave you
a few challenges. So, over your years in the environmental
movement, what presidential administrations have been the
best and the worst when it comes to protecting the
environment? Elaborate how as much as you want.


15

PA:
27:10

Well, it, well, I'll start with Nixon. He was president and
you know, Nixon doesn't get credit for doing much and he
was opposed to a tax-exempt organization that litigate. That
was something only the NAACP had done that. And they
even have notes and letters from Nixon to his, the people
who working with like, stop these guys, you know, that we
don't want this going on. But it could cause also at the same
time there was the civil rights, Huey Newton, other things
in court that were, it was Apollo until time, [inaudible], you
know, looking back. But in the end, under Nixon when
NRDC was formed, the Environmental Protection Agency,
the clean air act, many things that are still valid today are,
even though they're challenged and I'll always be
challenged, we're done. So, you know, in that area of
environment, Nixon I think was a good things happened.
PA:
28:06

And then, there was Carter who was very much a friend of
the environment, very willing to, he nominated 11
monuments in Alaska. And one of the best trips we ever
had was a board member who was able to afford it,
chartered planes. And, we visited the various, in 1977 we
visited the various suggested monuments in Alaska, which
would just gorgeous and quite special. And, that was a
daring trip in 1977. Now on Alaska is traveled a lot more
than it was then. But that was so, and then Reagan was a
battle. Reagan had a philosophy that things were over-
regulated and that anything that the federal government did,
not anything but should be cut back. And he had James
Watt. He really believed the land was here to be used,
whether it means for drilling or for building, but it wasn't
there to be set aside.
PA:
29:04

And his, and I'll mention this in the talk. His, the EPA
director who was a woman by the name of Anne Gorsuch,
her son is now on the Supreme Court. And she was, I
would say anti-environmentalism. She believed that she
was from the West and she believed that again, that
individual’s communities, and this is a question, can take
care of the environment. You don't need the federal
government to interfere. The NRDC lawyers in general feel
that you really do need oversight because an environmental


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issue isn't local. What's going on in Utah affects what's
going on in Arizona. And it also affects what's going on in
New York in terms of whether people can experience
wilderness. You take it all away, it's a one-way trip. You
don't get it back. You know, and then, who have we got
after? And then Clinton was a very, friendly to the
environment.
PA:
29:56

And John worked in a sub-cabinet position with, I mean, he
didn't leave NRDC, but he, he did work with, with Clinton
on sustainability was sort of the, the byword at that time.
And then, George Bush the first, no, he was before Clinton,
I guess. Yeah, no, whatever. Yeah, he was sort of neutral
actually. I mean, I think that, that, that things got done.
They did. There wasn't the George Bush the second, again,
took more than Reagan. You know, big government is not
good. You need more space and freedom. And so, there
were, more their world. And then there was Clinton and
then, um, Obama was very, positive towards environmental
issues and every, if things were going extremely well,
people were very pleased with what was being passed than
done. But Trump is definitely on the other side. And, that's
what they're dealing with now, you know, so that would,
PA:
30:55

And they're bringing lawsuits. Um, there's a video and I,
hope we're able to get it up. The fellow that's head of
litigation, I mentioned that they're now 15 women doing it,
but as he says, and the theory is this is there is the rule of
law in America and it's not politics and it's not propaganda
and it's not what you think it is. Facts. You take the facts to
court and then the white thing will come out of it. You have
to believe in the justice system. So a, that's what they're
doing now because Trump really has attacked a lot of the
protect what we see, we environmentally as protections, uh,
to the American people. He sees his government
interference and stopping the growth of you know,
businesses.
RT:
31:39

yeah. And that, wow, a lot of illustrations. I hadn't really
taken into account how many administrations, those are.


17

PA:
31:43

well, it's been 47 years really since in our 70 to now is 47
years. It's amazing to me too, by the way.
RT:

Okay, well given 47 years into the environment. So, what is
your role in the environment now?
PA:

Well John, um, and when you say you to me, you hear me
say John Cause it really is a partnership what I do
separately, although I did, I have done a couple of sort of
more environmental than I've done various public service
things and I taught I think, I don't know, but I did become a
teacher and writer and I published some books and I taught
in the inmate education program and I taught here at Marist
for a while and Duchess county community. But today John
still works with NRDC on some of the issues and, together
we were just as I sat out in southern Utah hosting a trip
with the concerned citizens and some donors who wanted
to know what was going on in Utah.
PA:
32:46

And then we went our own out to San Francisco where
NRDC, the office there had some luncheons for us to talk
to people about what's going on with Trump, with the
administration, where things are, we represent NRDC in
some ways. The NRDC has a new president [unsure
spelling] Wayasue, a woman and so he's not an officially
head of NRDC, but we still continue to represent and talk
and, you know, cultivate people who want to support
NRDC and, in terms of my own personal, activities,
environmental activities, I helped found a land trust and in
western North Carolina where I grew up and that land trust
has grown and is preserved or saved or redirected, let's say
a few thousands of acres of, land to be protected. It's down
in the Nano Haldon national forest area in western North
Carolina. And I also started a, Co-started a, nobody does
anything alone. A little organization up in the Catskills that
to protect our river and old covered bridge. It's sort of
historic and nature protection. So that's still going on.
RT:
33:54

Yeah. Okay. Well given all of that, what are some future
projects that you want to work on and you know, or


18

projects or actions do you think a college age student
should be involved in when it comes to the environment?
PA:
34:09

That's what I'm going to ask you all. Oh, the thing about
being involved, I mean I think that John and I, as you go
get old, we used to live here in the Hudson valley in
garrison, which is south of here. It's down south of cold
spring. I don't know, you know, what you know about the
Hudson Valley. Um, but now we live in upstate New York
and we are not really retired but we're based up there and I
tend to do more local things rather than thinking about
national things. I am on the board of the community college
and we are working on things like getting an arboretum and
doing sustainability and solar powered unit. So, in that
sense, I feel that it's my public service today and John will
continue to represent NRDC whenever possible. And in
terms of what young people can do, I sometimes ask that
question.
PA:
35:00

The big issue is climate change and that's a global issue.
And whether you believe it or not, I don't think anybody
can deny the weather's changing. You follow that up with
John and I sort of did a book tour. We talked to a lot of
groups after we did the book together and you know, a few
years ago, what can you do? What can an individual do?
It's frustrating for someone who talks about climate change
to say, well, change your light bulbs. Well, wait a minute.
Here we're talking about a global issue that can cost
thousands of hundreds of thousands of lives. You change
light bulbs. It's a thing kind of in the future. And it's big. It's
vague and it's very hard to know what individuals can do.
And in some ways the most important thing, which I'm not
doing is to organize and do political protest do political
action.
PA:
35:49

I am interested in your generation because I think that, I
think it's up to you guys and I think that there's a growing
awareness, not just about environmental issues but other
issues and the globalization, which is inevitable.[ unsure
phrase] And I go stop it. And you are the generation who
have had real challenges and I think you're going to meet


19

those challenges. I don't know how, but there is technology.
I often say, if you, when you think about computers, they
used to take up a whole room and now you've got an
iPhone, right? Solar units still take up fields. When are they
going to get a solar unit or a source of energy the size of an
iPhone? I think technology will find that. And I'm pretty
optimistic that there will be a way somehow, and I don't
think I, I have no idea how to solve the issue of the
dependence on fossil fuels.
PA:
36:45

We'll find a way that we don't need oil and gas and coal.
There'll be another source of energy. And again, it could be
solar, wind, but it'll, it'll, the technology will have to
improve. And that is your generation. So I don't know, I
mean, I'm going to open that up when we're all together at
the top. What do you think? and what do you, maybe you
don't think climate change is the issue, but what is the issue
or, and can you, how do you, you know, how do you feel
about the environmental issues there?
RT:
37:12

Wow, there's a bunch of environmental issues starting with
pollution. That's usually my biggest concern because there's
parts of it all over, but we are definitely starting with solar
energy as usual because we have these, you know, these
vendors who go from like place to place. I saw one carrying
this lab. It looks really pretty, but then he said it costed a lot
more than usual lab cost. But then he told me, put it out in
the sun, it will soak in the sun, and it'll light up during the
night. And I was mind blown for a second there because the
last time I saw, a solar panel is enormous. Yes. Yeah. And I
don’t know it just sparked a little interest in me and that
influenced me to take environmental issues, which I took
last semester and I got more acquainted with issues and
steps to take, you know, to protect the environment and so
forth.
PA:
38:10

Right. There are other on the ground things like, as you say,
pollution. We were in China, I just couldn't wait to leave. I
couldn't breathe. It was, so we, I called it the land with no
shadows. It wasn't enough sun coming through to make a
shadow. That's how polluted it was in [baking? Beijing?]


20

but I think that as you said, there'll be, as the unit
technology, basically we'll help find those, solve those bugs
and the, and the issue of water is an enormous issue. I don't
know how it is in Kenya, but I just read the New York
Times about, India, the rivers that used to flow freely are
just sewage lines now. I mean, and you, you, you can't live
without water. And water will also be a big issue as the
population increases and globalization. So,
RT:
38:56

Yeah. Well, I mean we were talking about the PCBs that
are in the Hudson river because I didn't realize how
dangerous it was until I went down to the river. And on the
dock, there is a sign that says be aware of the fish that you
fish here because of PCBs. That's when it hit me. This is
real.
PA:
39:14

This is real. Absolutely. And that's a battle that's been
going on for 20 or 30 years. We, you get GM to clean it and
there's, and it's controversial and complicated because some
say it's better just to leave them down there and not store it
all up cause you'll never get them all out. But the other
hand is there still is to poison and they're lying at the foot
of the river. So that's been, and those things, you know, I
don't blame the big chemical companies who did this. It
was the era of anything is good if it's progress. And they
were never, you know, there were no regulations. That's the
reason NRDC and other envir.. don't want to see Trump, let
go of regulations because it, you know, you need those to
protect our natural resources.
RT:

Well, I think we are done. Okay. How much time did we
take? It wasn't too bad. Yeah. Okay. Thank you so much.