David Kammer Oral History Transcript
Media
Part of David Kammer Oral History
content
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
1
David Kammer
Marist College
Poughkeepsie, New York
Transcribed by Erin Kelly
For the Marist College Archives and Special Collections
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
2
Transcript: David Kammer
Interviewee:
David Kammer
Interviewer:
Gus Nolan
Interview date:
30 May 2002
Location:
Marist Archives and Special Collections Reading Room
Topic:
Marist College History
Subject Headings:
Marist Brothers - United States - History
Marist College History
Marist College (Poughkeepsie, New York)
Marist College Social Aspects
Summary:
The following interview occurs with David Kammer, who speaks of his
participation as a Brother at Marist Training School. In the beginning of the interview,
David Kammer reflects on his early educational years during the Depression into his
involvement with the Marist Brothers. David Kammer speaks of the Novitiate and
Scholasticate as well as many other people involved in Marist College’s earlier years
including Brother Paul Stokes among various other Brothers. Within the interview,
David Kammer also speaks of the physical plan of Marist College in its earlier years as
well as his various responsibilities as a Brother. David Kammer also speaks of his
working at St. Ann’s Academy and Marist Institute of Theology. The interview ends
with David Kammer’s reflection on
Marist’s All
and its impact on the college.
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
3
“BEGINNING OF INTERVIEW”
Gus Nolan:
Good afternoon. Today we are interviewing David Kammer. This is
part of the ongoing Archive project. They are interviews with past students at
Marist College. Today is May 30
th
. It’s about three o’clock in the afternoon and
the interview is taking place in the Marist College Library in the Archive Center.
Good afternoon David.
Joseph A. David Kammer:
Good afternoon Gus.
GN:
David, could I have your full name please?
JADK:
Joseph A. David Kammer.
GN:
Were you named after any member of the family?
JADK:
The Joseph came from my grandfather and my father.
GN:
And the A?
JADK:
I do not know where that came from. I usually don’t say what that is but I
will here. It is Alfred.
GN:
Okay.
JADK:
The David part came from my grandfather because his name was
Joseph David.
GN:
Where and when were you born?
JADK:
I was born in Wheeling, West Virginia September 24
th
, 1921.
GN:
Okay and were there other members of the family? Do you have siblings
and are they still alive?
JADK:
I’m the oldest of six children. I have one brother and four sisters. One of
them is deceased. My oldest sister is deceased.
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
4
GN:
Okay, and your parents’ names?
JADK:
My father’s name was Joseph Otmer Kammer and my mother’s name
was Manetha. Her maiden name was Fralinger.
GN:
Okay, and what did your father do?
JADK:
My father was a mechanic, an automotive mechanic.
GN:
Okay, and could you tell us please about your early education? Where did
you go to grammar school and high school?
JADK:
My first four years of grammar school were at St. Joan of Arc Parish
School and that was taught by the Divine Providence nuns. My last four years
were at St. Vincent De Paul’s Grammar School in Elm Grove, West Virginia and
taught by the sisters of St. Joseph.
GN:
And where did you go high school?
JADK:
I went to high school at Central Catholic High School in Wheeling, West
Virginia taught by the Marist Brothers.
GN:
And what year did you graduate from high school?
JADK:
I graduated from high school in 1940.
GN:
And what did you do then?
JADK:
Then I looked for a job and the only job I got was as a bellhop and I was
a bellhop for one year.
GN:
Okay, and then following this job, what moved you to make inquiry into the
Marist Brothers?
JADK:
Well, in the course of that year that I was a bellhop, I sort of was… I
regretted… I was lonely for high school and so I went to one of the Brothers,
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
5
Brother Leo Anselm and I asked him “How much does it cost to make a Brother?”
and that led to my getting involved with the Brothers.
GN:
Okay, let’s move this along and then when did you come to Poughkeepsie?
Do you recall the dates and years?
JADK:
I came to Poughkeepsie. I left Wheeling on August 20, 1941 and arrived
in Poughkeepsie a few days later.
GN:
At the famous Poughkeepsie railroad station?
JADK:
At the train station. Starting of at St. Ann’s Academy, I by the way was
accompanied by Larry Hanshumaker and Bernie Garrett. The three of us came
in one shot together.
GN:
That’s interesting. Let’s talk a little bit if you can about your recollection of
life in the Novitiate and then in the Scholasticate. What was the day like? Could
you take us through it in terms of academic aspects of it or schooling versus
spiritual versus the work life?
JADK:
Well, the first things that perhaps I’d like to say would be that I arrived in
Poughkeepsie in the evening. In fact, we were taken to the Novitiate when it was
dark and in fact, that would be Larry Hanshumaker and myself. Bernie would
have gone to the Juniorate. It was so dark that they were… They ushered us
into the sacristy because the Novices were singing
The Salve Regina
and we
didn’t see anybody then. We were ushered off to the dormitory. [Laughter]
GN:
The secret of a light. [Laughter]
JADK:
They didn’t even give us a drink. [Laughter] So to answer your question,
the dormitory reminds me that, to my recollection, in the summertime, I
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
6
remember screens. I mean, we were fighting mosquitoes all the time. In the
wintertime, we sealed the windows by putting paper in the cracks otherwise we
would’ve frozen to death. As far as the getting the academics, well, I don’t know
how much of this to say. This can go on forever if I talk forever but I already had
a high school diploma and because this was Depression time, I graduated from
high school not expecting to go to college. I had gone to my third and fourth year
in commercial and so I achieved a high school diploma. It was a commercial
high school diploma. Therefore when I came to Poughkeepsie, if I was going to
go into teaching, I had to become an academic. So I needed to get the academic
qualifications. So I proceeded to get a Regents diploma, therefore I had two
diplomas, one commercial and one high school, one academic.
GN:
Oh.
JADK:
Very interesting, unique.
GN:
You’re probably the only person I know that has two diplomas [Laughter]
from high school.
JADK:
And in any case, in the two years, the second year as a novice, I did
Latin III, in which they’ve never run a III. And in the first year there I did, you
know, History IV and English IV which gave me the requirements for the Regents
diploma.
GN:
As a high school person coming into the Novitiate, how did the work
program, the assignments, the so called employments that were divvied out
strike you?
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
7
JADK:
Well, I didn’t mind the work. In point of fact, my second year there, I
became the truck driver since I had had experience driving. I had succeeded
Brother Godfrey who had been the truck driver when I was there the first year.
And I can’t say anything about the work. You know, we worked regularly and we
worked hard.
GN:
It was not a particularly heavy burden? You were not spoiled at home so I
mean, working was not exactly… You made your own bed and to do
necessary…
JADK:
I didn’t mind.
GN:
You didn’t mind the work?
JADK:
No.
GN:
Okay. Let’s move from the Novitiate to the Scholasticate. Now you’re
going into the full stream of college work and a new person has come on board
here. His name is Brother Paul Ambrose? Can you give us some recollection of
your impressions of Brother Paul in 1942, at this stage?
JADK:
This would have been for the ’43 because I came in in ’41. ’42 would’ve
been the end of the first year. ’43 was the end of my second year.
GN:
So in the fall of ’43 you’re coming to the college, Marian College?
JADK:
And that’s when Paul Ambrose comes in.
GN:
Okay.
JADK:
Yea, well, he was a young man, thirty years of age, just graduated, just
got his Master’s degree from Catholic University. We had… The general attitude
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
8
was things were going to be looking up and he was going to be doing great
things which he did.
GN:
Who was on the staff with him then?
JADK:
On the staff with him that first year was Brother Francis Xavier and
Brother Leo Hyacinth.
GN:
Hyacinth.
JADK:
And Brother Francis Xavier taught the History and the Math. Brother Leo
Hyacinth taught the Chemistry, Physiology and French and Brother Paul
Ambrose taught English Composition and English Literature. These subjects
were the foundations for our work in college academics leading us… Well,
basically we were given with a normal school-like situation.
GN:
Now what do you mean by normal school?
JADK:
By normal school I envision people who are studying to be teachers and
in the early days and in the 18
th
, early 19
th
century, early 20
th
century, a lot of
Normal school prepared teachers and after two years, they taught and that’s all
they did. We did two years and then we were destined to continue our studies at
Fordham University in New York.
GN:
So your time coming here, there was not a four-year college. It was only a
two-year college.
JADK:
It was a two-year college and we called it Marist Training School. It was
like a Normal school and we called it colloquially as the Scholasticate. And
Brother Paul Ambrose was known as the Master of Scholastics. He was like a
headmaster of a normal school.
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
9
GN:
Okay, talking about the physical plant, do you have in your mind’s eye a
vision of where you slept and where you studied and where you ate in those
years?
JADK:
Yes. Greystone, first of all start with Greystone. The top floor of
Greystone was the library and there was no librarian. One was Scholastics…
The Brothers were studying, we called them Scholastics. One of the scholastics
had that as an employment, a job. I was a librarian for one year looking after the
books and…
GN:
You didn’t have a budget though, did you?
JADK:
No budget. [Laughter] The middle floor of Greystone was a classroom
and the bottom floor was the chemistry lab and a classroom and to the…
GN:
West.
JADK:
West, to the west of Greystone was a building that was known in those
days as the Marian building and the main entrance to that opened onto a rather
large room, which was used as a classroom, as an auditorium and as a study
room. To the left or south of that room was a washroom and beyond that were
rooms that we called the Pullman. The Pullman was a set of about four or five
rooms on either side, the front of which had curtains. That’s why it was likened to
a Pullman. These were rooms where second year Scholastics slept. First year
Scholastics slept over in the Hermitage, what we called the Hermitage, which
would be… What is that, MacPherson?
GN:
I thought yea, MacPherson’s building.
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
10
JADK:
Which had been recently vacated by the juniors who went over to
Esopus.
GN:
Okay.
JADK:
Back to the Marian building, the upper floor was occupied by a clothing
room and a tailor shop and then my second year there, it was converted into a
biology lab. My second year, the Pullman was changed to a classroom.
GN:
And more space is provided then in the Hermitage for, since the juniors
were gone, for the rest of the Scholastics to stay?
JADK:
Yea. Yea in my second year, all the Scholastics were over in the upper
floors of the Hermitage.
GN:
Again, just for clarity, the chapel was in the Hermitage and the refectory, so
all the cooking and eating was done there?
JADK:
Yea, we slept over there. We had Mass over there. We did all the
eating over there, all the meals were over there.
GN:
Okay. What year did you finish here then? Was it two years after that that
you…?
JADK:
I spent two years, right.
GN:
1945?
JADK:
’45, right.
GN:
Okay and what’s your first assignment then?
JADK:
My first assignment was as a cook in Esopus.
GN:
Okay.
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
11
JADK:
So in ’45, ’46, I cooked. Brother Eddie Volmer was my assistant and I
had various distinguished people whom I cooked for including a certain Gus
Nolan, who at that time, was a sophomore in high school. I cooked for Marty
Lang who was a junior.
GN:
Yes, right. He was a junior.
JADK:
A variety of other wonderful people.
GN:
Right, gone onto make their mark in this world in very limited ways.
[Laughter] Then moving on from that first assignment, what was your next
assignment?
JADK:
The next assignment was at the St. Ann’s Academy in New York City,
76
th
and Lex, and I was there for ten years.
GN:
Ten years? What did you teach at St. Ann’s Academy?
JADK:
I started teaching fifth grade. I taught fifth grade one and a half years. In
those days, grammar schools on Long Island graduated some students in the
middle of the year and as a result, St. Ann’s had a habit of accommodating
midyear graduates, taking them in as freshman and doing a full freshman year
and a half year. So I was promoted to homeroom teacher of one of those
halfway through my second year and I taught two classes of algebra to get the
full year in and two classes of English to get the full year in. Paul Stokes, I think
taught something else.
GN:
Yea, we didn’t talk about your major. What was actually your major in
college or…?
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
12
JADK:
At… Here in Poughkeepsie, Paul Ambrose… I was kind of leaning to the
math but Paul Ambrose said we had loads of math teachers and we needed
English teachers so “You seem to be able to write pretty good so why don’t you
become an English major?” which I did.
GN:
What were some of the other activities you were involved in at St. Ann’s?
JADK:
Well, the only extracurricular activity that I had at St. Ann’s to my
knowledge was the Sodality, that was one.
GN:
And there was something about an introduction of a new concept in terms
of cells, groups or cell…?
JADK:
You know, someplace along the line, we introduced that.
GN:
Now what was the purpose? Was there a follow-up of that? Was there an
action program that followed this…?
JADK:
We… I don’t know how we get into that but in any case, instead of
dealing with students who were part of the Sodality as a group, we tended to
bring them into small units of five or six and bring out some thought and have
them discuss it and share their ideas. That was sort of it in those days, I guess.
GN:
Okay. In time though, you get another assignment which is to teach, to
direct the operation in Tyngsboro. Where is Tyngsboro? Well, maybe I’m
jumping something.
JADK:
Wait, before we get to that, can I go back to the Sodality?
GN:
Yes, please do.
JADK:
I wonder where all this would be useful and important. Because we were
doing… I had an assistant, Brother Ulrich Channel, one of my assistants and
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
13
later on [Cocoa], I forget what his name was. He was also an assistant but
anyhow, things were going pretty good and as a result we had a meeting in the
library of St. Ann’s of all the Sodality moderators in the New York area and it was
interesting leading up to that. One of the things we had at the meeting was to
invite a Jesuit priest who was well-known for his Sodality work at the time and
Father LaFarge, (S.J.) I think him name was. And to set up that meeting I went
over to the St. Ignatius Church to meet with him and do what was necessary to
get him to come over and in so doing, he took me to his room or office wherever
it was and we pass a room and he pointed out that that man, that priest there
was a paleontologist who had just come back from China and he didn’t introduce
me to him but my conclusion is that that was…
GN:
Chardin.
JADK:
Father Teilhard de Chardin. So that’s sort of an interesting episode in
my mind.
GN:
Yea.
JADK:
That I missed the opportunity to actually speak with him. So to get to
your question, what did I…?
GN:
Okay, moving onto Tyngsboro. Where is Tyngsboro?
JADK:
Tyngsboro is in Massachusetts up outside of Lowell, Massachusetts and
on the border of New Hampshire, just south of Nashua.
GN:
Okay, and could you describe a little bit this property in Tyngsboro. Is it
much different form the property in Poughkeepsie or Esopus or is it… Are they
pretty much all the same pattern?
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
14
JADK:
Well, yea. It had had the pattern of Poughkeepsie in the earlier days
because it had the farm and you had the farmer. So Tyngsboro, when I was
there, was a Novitiate and the students did their studies but in so far as the their
time on the farm of course there was an opportunity there for them to do all kinds
of farm work and a lot of these people were from New York so coming to there,
this was really quite a… Partly a novel and partly a challenge, you know? We
had people go into the… When they first came, of course the corn was coming in
and while I would kind of shoot the corn into the silo and somebody in the silo
had to move the corn around so it would settle and it became intoxicating in
there. [Laughter]
GN:
Yea, right. That’s an interesting concept that the Marist Brothers, we were
founded in a farm-like situation and when they came to this country, it was pretty
much a continuation of that.
JADK:
Well, here in Poughkeepsie and in Tyngsboro.
GN:
Yea, yea. And a lot of the recruits that become Marist Brothers were not
farmers. They had come from the big city and didn’t know much about cows or…
JADK:
Yea.
GN:
Corn or silent or anything related to that. Okay, continuing on in Tyngsboro,
how long were you there?
JADK:
Ten years.
GN:
Another ten years? You don’t move very much.
JADK:
Well, it seems [as though… ].
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
15
GN:
Could you say something about the interrelationship while you were there of
the programs at the Novitiate and Marist College? Were some of them degree
programs? Were they following… Were the students there beginning to get
courses that were college-based?
JADK:
Yes. My first year, I was the Assistant Master of Novices and the people
who were there the first year are known as Postulants were really going… First
year of college for them, which was geared to the program here in
Poughkeepsie. It was the link in with what was going on here. And the second
year course was dominantly religious or theological formation and… But there
was usually one course that might have been linked in with the program here at
the college.
GN:
So that… I’m getting at the fact that there’s a kind of a satellite college in
New England that’s part of Marist, an extension of Marist, as there was in
Esopus.
JADK:
Yes.
GN:
And the interchange. Was there any visitation from the college people at
that time?
JADK:
Well, Paul Ambrose would come but very interesting too, the very first
time that Marist College was up for accreditation, a representative of that team
came to Tyngsboro just to look at Tyngsboro and to sit with me and interview me.
GN:
Yes, incidentally, one came to Esopus also…
JADK:
Is that right?
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
16
GN:
And the interesting question he had is why did the college choose
Poughkeepsie and then Esopus as its center of development. He saw Esopus
as a much more rural and majestic campus to develop rather than outside the
city of Poughkeepsie.
JADK:
Yea.
GN:
And he was right. Were there any outstanding students from your percep-
… Let’s put the question maybe another way. Can you talk about some of the
memorable people that you dealt with either on staff or students that came to you
while you were in Tyngsboro.
JADK:
Well, you know, my second year of course I was in charge and I had
some wonderful people as my helpers there, most importantly which would be
Brother Edmund G. Driscoll. Brother John Frances Colbert was also very helpful
to me. Later on we had Bill Murphy, John Bosco, John Malich, people that were
very helpful to me over that ten year period. Outstanding students my first year
there, when I was just a helper. I was the assistant. That class was a fantastic
class, a lot of very memorable people like John Wilcox and…
GN:
John Wilcox now is teaching in Manhattan and he majored in theology.
JADK:
And then Nathan, I can picture faces but I can’t think of the names all of
a sudden. Who’s the priest in Leo right there?
GN:
Owen Lafferty.
JADK:
Owen Lafferty, Pasquariello, a lot of very smart guys in that class.
GN:
Did Sean Sammon ever come through you?
JADK:
Yea, he was… My last year there, he was one of my students, yes.
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
17
GN:
Yea.
JADK:
In between there were a lot of other memorable people, yes.
GN:
Okay, along with this development of the college and the relation to
Tyngsboro and then the college developing some other institutes. The Institute
of Spirituality was developed. The institute was…
JADK:
MIT.
GN:
The MIT, Marist Institute of Theology, okay. Unlike you now, I’m beginning
to get confused in the terms here. What was your perception of that and did you
participate in it?
JADK:
When it first started, my recollection is it was started by Marty Lang and
Leonard and there may have been a third one. Leonard Voegtle…
GN:
Yes.
JADK:
And of course I was very much for this and I think I visited some of the
sessions in the summer, a couple of them but that was towards the end of my
time in Tyngsboro.
GN:
Right. Okay, from Tyngsboro, how did you see the college? Was there a
transfer in administration here? Had Brother Paul left and had Brother Linus…
Linus with him, Linus Foy, come on since?
JADK:
I think during my time in Tyngsboro, Linus did take over, yes, because…
GN:
About ’68, ’69.
JADK:
Brother Ambrose had become an Assistant General.
GN:
Yes.
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
18
JADK:
And I don’t know who… Things in Tyngsboro continued to run smoothly
with the college here, yes.
GN:
Yea, but there was never any interaction? You were not ever responsible
to report to the college authorities? The provinces were the official administrative
people that you had to deal with rather than the college?
JADK:
Yes.
GN:
Is that right?
JADK:
Yes but at the same time, the college, our working with the college was
very harmonious.
GN:
Yes. Well, for other reasons we have said before then that some of those
courses or all the apostolate courses were really part of a college program.
JADK:
Yea, yea.
GN:
On this, maybe some removed and difficult concepts. Brother Paul had
been here at the beginning and he’s replaced by Linus and I’m not sure where
you are in this transfer and if it ever did affect you. So that you could say that the
administration of one was quite different than the administration of the other.
JADK:
From the point of view at Tyngsboro, I don’t recall many problems or any
significant change, no.
GN:
Okay. Why don’t we move onto another aspect of your life. Where did you
settle after you left the canonical state of Brotherhood? Did you go to
Connecticut or did you go to New York, or where?
JADK:
Well, maybe before… Can we just back up a little bit? I did, you know
that Marist Institute of Theology which we were talking about a moment ago. I
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
19
was asked to become director of that and I was director of that for the last two
years. You know, organizing the people who were coming…
GN:
To give the lectures?
JADK:
To give them and…
GN:
As well as the students? I mean, the student body...
JADK:
Yea, we were recruiting, trying to recruit the students and we put ads in
the NCR at a time when the only ads in there were ours and maybe one other.
You know, those were the early days of the NCR when they didn’t have a whole
lot of advertisements. But anyhow, move on.
GN:
Well, your experience at the MIT then gave you a wider specter. You were
still involved in Tyngsboro or is this a separate part of…?
JADK:
Well, I entered Tyngsboro and then went to Rome for the chapter III and
when I came back from the first session of my chapter, that’s when there was a
vacancy for directing, leading the MIT.
GN:
Right.
JADK:
And they asked me to fill in.
GN:
Okay, there was a point they wanted to make earlier a European study work
as a Marist Brother both in the second Novitiate and also then at the chapter.
JADK:
And I was…
GN:
Some acquaintances you met then have been long-lasting, have they not?
JADK:
Excuse me?
GN:
Some of your acquaintances at the chapter on European studies have been
long-lasting?
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
20
JADK:
Yea, I studied in Europe in ’56 to ’57, yes, in France and then I went
back to Rome in ’67 and ’68 I think it was.
GN:
Okay. Then moving on, you leave the canonical state would you say, of
Brotherhood and you marry and live in Connecticut?
JADK:
Yes and taught in the Litchfield Connecticut school system, yes, and I
taught there for eleven years.
GN:
This is up one now. It’s been ten and ten, now it’s eleven so we’re making
some progress. [Laughter] You’re getting a little more stability I think in your
stays.
JADK:
Yea, so after the eleventh year there, that’s when I reached sixty-five.
No, I reached sixty years of age at the end of that eleven years and the system
was trying to unload the older people in favor of the people who didn’t cost them
as much. So they gave me a “golden handshake”, which in those days was the
early days of “golden handshakes” and they weren’t very great. I think it was
about $2,000, something like that. And on retiring from there, then I went to get a
job in a Catholic school in Waterbury, Connecticut, which was run by the Holy
Cross Brothers. Are you still interested in…?
GN:
Oh, yes. Yes.
JADK:
I taught there for five years until I was sixty-five, at which time I decided
it’s time to throw in the sponge for teaching full-time at least, you know?
GN:
Full-time. And did you take up any other activity then?
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
21
JADK:
Well, at that time I had already gotten into doing income taxes. So I did
income taxes for a stretch of about ten years about four years beyond the high
school experience.
GN:
Teach? I see. Then what caused you to look towards the south and move
to Florida? What was the inspiration to do that?
JADK:
Well, after retiring, the general thought was maybe you should look into
retirement in Florida and so we decided one day in December to go on down to
scout around Florida and see what would be available. And the reason we went
in December was that I was teaching tax courses in the fall, September, October
and November. So those courses ended in November and I’m looking to go
south in December.
GN:
Okay, standing back I’d like to see what your perspective would be at Marist
College now. Can you talk holistically as it were in terms of saying what do you
feel the college has gained from your first initial contact with it to now, fifty-five or
sixty years later? Did you envision that this might ever happen?
JADK:
Oh, no. I could never envision this would happen when I was here as a
student, no. I think the… I dare say that it has been a wonderful development,
totally unexpected and frankly, I’m proud of it. I enjoyed coming here. When I
have Marist College literature, I’m happy to show it to other people. In a way, it’s
too bad that it’s not still involved with the Marist Brothers as much as it was.
GN:
That’s my next question. What has it lost do you think?
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
22
JADK:
Well, I think the whole way of life of the past is gone and that’s, from
some point of view, that’s too bad but time goes on and maybe this is a whole
providential. This is the way it’s meant to go, you know?
GN:
Okay, moving into the period now of your retirement which is probably ten
years or more that you have been in Florida…
JADK:
I love it.
GN:
In retirement. What things are you doing now?
JADK:
What am I doing now? [Laughter]
GN:
Yea. Are you teaching? Are you involved in any social work? Are you
involved in activities?
JADK:
Well, we are involved in what we call “The Healing Development.”
Working out at the parish down there we help to staff a system whereby poor
people come in for help, food and various other needs that they may have. They
run short on their… They get behind on their water bill or utilities bill and are
threatened to be cut off and the parish has a fund that enables us to help them
tie them over a bit. And it’s up to us to make the judgment of whether, how much
and whether we should give them, write out a check for this.
GN:
Okay. Does this distract you after you have involved your two hours a week
with this? Do you think about it later or can you go there and leave it behind you
or do you take it home with you?
JADK:
I think that basically we leave it behind. Once in a while we come away
though with, you know, with lots of “How can people be in these situations in
life?” you know?
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
23
GN:
Yea. Okay. That’s one activity. I would really miss if I didn’t ask you about
thing called
Marist’s All
, for the sake of the Archives.
JADK:
For the sake of the Archives. [Laughter]
GN:
How would you describe this venture? What is it to you?
JADK:
I don’t know what to say about this.
GN:
Well, I mean maybe another… Different, we can brainstorm a little on it.
This is certainly a magnificent contribution I think in the totality of the years and
the amount of work that has gone into it. The sixty-eighth issue I think I think is
going to be published soon.
JADK:
Yea.
GN:
Well, what impact do you think it’s had?
JADK:
Well, first of all the things started out of the blue. At the time that you
and I talked about it, the idea that there was a Province newsletter that was
maybe in the days of the Province and it was interesting material for me and for
those of us who were not canonically with the congregation. I appreciated… I
think we appreciated reading these things and so the idea evolved that maybe
there ought to be something that would cater to the needs of everybody, those
who were in and those who were out. So it started out and was received well
and the letters we have received indicate that everybody got a lot out of it and
those that read it are overwhelmed by the types of activity that people are
involved in. So many of them are involved in social services and human needs
at one point or another, either teaching or guidance and what have you.
GN:
And most of these people are Marist College graduates, are they not?
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
24
JADK:
They’re saying that they all are.
GN:
Yea.
JADK:
Or at least have attended Marist College. They may have gotten their
actual degree elsewhere but they’re a great, great majority of Marist College
graduates.
GN:
So we could rightly say this is a continuation of the work of a college
through its graduates afterwards. Former students who are doing these things
that have impressed so many other people.
JADK:
Yea.
GN:
More specifically, as I said, this sixty-eighth issue, what would you say is,
on a typical issue, what’s the amount of time that you have to invest in it? Is
there any way of judging that?
JADK:
That’s very hard to say. Everyone had come up with a… In less than a
year. You know, normally it gets published in quarterly and sometimes more
frequently but nonetheless. Let’s say if it’s published quarterly, that means three
months between one issue and the next, right. So with the first month and month
and a half, there’s a little bit of time and as things accumulate, the second month
or month and a half, there’s more time to put into it. Exactly how much, I could
never say.
GN:
But when you’re putting time into it, you’re talking about one or two hours a
day?
JADK:
Oh, yea.
GN:
In typing and rewriting and editing, searching things out and proofreading.
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
25
JADK:
Yea.
GN:
Okay. Were there any disappointments in it?
JADK:
No, I would say not.
GN:
Maybe in one or two who have decided that they would not respond.
JADK:
Oh, yea. Yea. I’m starting to get foggy. [Laughter]
GN:
Yea, but that’s so minimal because I can just remember there’s only maybe
two that have of more than… I think we have a mailing list of maybe 500.
JADK:
Yea.
GN:
And if over the fifty years, two people have said that I’m not interested in
receiving this anymore.
JADK:
Oh, yea. Yea, I didn’t know that’s what you meant. You know, out of
them. Yea, that’s right. In fact, at one point we… There were a number of
people that we had never heard from and never written or anything and so we
wrote to them to say, you know, “If you’re really interested in this, let us now” and
at that point, there were I dare to say four or five that said “Okay, don’t send us
anymore.”
GN:
Yea, but they all mailed a response. Even from those who had not written,
they still wanted to receive it.
JADK:
They still… Yea, they came through and said “Yes, keep me on the list.”
GN:
Yea, right.
JADK:
Many of them said I’m just not a writer, you know, I don’t know what to
say.
GN:
No one’s interested in what I’ve done.
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
26
JADK:
Yea, they really wanted to continue to receive it and one of the benefits
of the newsletter I dare say is the fact that we have maintained through it a
certain… the same type of camaraderie and friendship that existed when we
were together as a team, you know…
GN:
Yea.
JADK:
In the congregation.
GN:
Okay. I really have nothing more to say. Is there anything I didn’t ask that
maybe you would like to say in terms of this interview?
JADK:
At this point, I’m sort of punchy. [Laughter] I sort of have fallen down so
I just think probably…
GN:
Well, we can come back again and revisit this or letters can be sent to us
here and revisions can be made if indeed. But we thank you very much.
JADK:
Thank you very much. It’s been a pleasure and a privilege.
“END OF INTERVIEW”
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
1
David Kammer
Marist College
Poughkeepsie, New York
Transcribed by Erin Kelly
For the Marist College Archives and Special Collections
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
2
Transcript: David Kammer
Interviewee:
David Kammer
Interviewer:
Gus Nolan
Interview date:
30 May 2002
Location:
Marist Archives and Special Collections Reading Room
Topic:
Marist College History
Subject Headings:
Marist Brothers - United States - History
Marist College History
Marist College (Poughkeepsie, New York)
Marist College Social Aspects
Summary:
The following interview occurs with David Kammer, who speaks of his
participation as a Brother at Marist Training School. In the beginning of the interview,
David Kammer reflects on his early educational years during the Depression into his
involvement with the Marist Brothers. David Kammer speaks of the Novitiate and
Scholasticate as well as many other people involved in Marist College’s earlier years
including Brother Paul Stokes among various other Brothers. Within the interview,
David Kammer also speaks of the physical plan of Marist College in its earlier years as
well as his various responsibilities as a Brother. David Kammer also speaks of his
working at St. Ann’s Academy and Marist Institute of Theology. The interview ends
with David Kammer’s reflection on
Marist’s All
and its impact on the college.
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
3
“BEGINNING OF INTERVIEW”
Gus Nolan:
Good afternoon. Today we are interviewing David Kammer. This is
part of the ongoing Archive project. They are interviews with past students at
Marist College. Today is May 30
th
. It’s about three o’clock in the afternoon and
the interview is taking place in the Marist College Library in the Archive Center.
Good afternoon David.
Joseph A. David Kammer:
Good afternoon Gus.
GN:
David, could I have your full name please?
JADK:
Joseph A. David Kammer.
GN:
Were you named after any member of the family?
JADK:
The Joseph came from my grandfather and my father.
GN:
And the A?
JADK:
I do not know where that came from. I usually don’t say what that is but I
will here. It is Alfred.
GN:
Okay.
JADK:
The David part came from my grandfather because his name was
Joseph David.
GN:
Where and when were you born?
JADK:
I was born in Wheeling, West Virginia September 24
th
, 1921.
GN:
Okay and were there other members of the family? Do you have siblings
and are they still alive?
JADK:
I’m the oldest of six children. I have one brother and four sisters. One of
them is deceased. My oldest sister is deceased.
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
4
GN:
Okay, and your parents’ names?
JADK:
My father’s name was Joseph Otmer Kammer and my mother’s name
was Manetha. Her maiden name was Fralinger.
GN:
Okay, and what did your father do?
JADK:
My father was a mechanic, an automotive mechanic.
GN:
Okay, and could you tell us please about your early education? Where did
you go to grammar school and high school?
JADK:
My first four years of grammar school were at St. Joan of Arc Parish
School and that was taught by the Divine Providence nuns. My last four years
were at St. Vincent De Paul’s Grammar School in Elm Grove, West Virginia and
taught by the sisters of St. Joseph.
GN:
And where did you go high school?
JADK:
I went to high school at Central Catholic High School in Wheeling, West
Virginia taught by the Marist Brothers.
GN:
And what year did you graduate from high school?
JADK:
I graduated from high school in 1940.
GN:
And what did you do then?
JADK:
Then I looked for a job and the only job I got was as a bellhop and I was
a bellhop for one year.
GN:
Okay, and then following this job, what moved you to make inquiry into the
Marist Brothers?
JADK:
Well, in the course of that year that I was a bellhop, I sort of was… I
regretted… I was lonely for high school and so I went to one of the Brothers,
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
5
Brother Leo Anselm and I asked him “How much does it cost to make a Brother?”
and that led to my getting involved with the Brothers.
GN:
Okay, let’s move this along and then when did you come to Poughkeepsie?
Do you recall the dates and years?
JADK:
I came to Poughkeepsie. I left Wheeling on August 20, 1941 and arrived
in Poughkeepsie a few days later.
GN:
At the famous Poughkeepsie railroad station?
JADK:
At the train station. Starting of at St. Ann’s Academy, I by the way was
accompanied by Larry Hanshumaker and Bernie Garrett. The three of us came
in one shot together.
GN:
That’s interesting. Let’s talk a little bit if you can about your recollection of
life in the Novitiate and then in the Scholasticate. What was the day like? Could
you take us through it in terms of academic aspects of it or schooling versus
spiritual versus the work life?
JADK:
Well, the first things that perhaps I’d like to say would be that I arrived in
Poughkeepsie in the evening. In fact, we were taken to the Novitiate when it was
dark and in fact, that would be Larry Hanshumaker and myself. Bernie would
have gone to the Juniorate. It was so dark that they were… They ushered us
into the sacristy because the Novices were singing
The Salve Regina
and we
didn’t see anybody then. We were ushered off to the dormitory. [Laughter]
GN:
The secret of a light. [Laughter]
JADK:
They didn’t even give us a drink. [Laughter] So to answer your question,
the dormitory reminds me that, to my recollection, in the summertime, I
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
6
remember screens. I mean, we were fighting mosquitoes all the time. In the
wintertime, we sealed the windows by putting paper in the cracks otherwise we
would’ve frozen to death. As far as the getting the academics, well, I don’t know
how much of this to say. This can go on forever if I talk forever but I already had
a high school diploma and because this was Depression time, I graduated from
high school not expecting to go to college. I had gone to my third and fourth year
in commercial and so I achieved a high school diploma. It was a commercial
high school diploma. Therefore when I came to Poughkeepsie, if I was going to
go into teaching, I had to become an academic. So I needed to get the academic
qualifications. So I proceeded to get a Regents diploma, therefore I had two
diplomas, one commercial and one high school, one academic.
GN:
Oh.
JADK:
Very interesting, unique.
GN:
You’re probably the only person I know that has two diplomas [Laughter]
from high school.
JADK:
And in any case, in the two years, the second year as a novice, I did
Latin III, in which they’ve never run a III. And in the first year there I did, you
know, History IV and English IV which gave me the requirements for the Regents
diploma.
GN:
As a high school person coming into the Novitiate, how did the work
program, the assignments, the so called employments that were divvied out
strike you?
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
7
JADK:
Well, I didn’t mind the work. In point of fact, my second year there, I
became the truck driver since I had had experience driving. I had succeeded
Brother Godfrey who had been the truck driver when I was there the first year.
And I can’t say anything about the work. You know, we worked regularly and we
worked hard.
GN:
It was not a particularly heavy burden? You were not spoiled at home so I
mean, working was not exactly… You made your own bed and to do
necessary…
JADK:
I didn’t mind.
GN:
You didn’t mind the work?
JADK:
No.
GN:
Okay. Let’s move from the Novitiate to the Scholasticate. Now you’re
going into the full stream of college work and a new person has come on board
here. His name is Brother Paul Ambrose? Can you give us some recollection of
your impressions of Brother Paul in 1942, at this stage?
JADK:
This would have been for the ’43 because I came in in ’41. ’42 would’ve
been the end of the first year. ’43 was the end of my second year.
GN:
So in the fall of ’43 you’re coming to the college, Marian College?
JADK:
And that’s when Paul Ambrose comes in.
GN:
Okay.
JADK:
Yea, well, he was a young man, thirty years of age, just graduated, just
got his Master’s degree from Catholic University. We had… The general attitude
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
8
was things were going to be looking up and he was going to be doing great
things which he did.
GN:
Who was on the staff with him then?
JADK:
On the staff with him that first year was Brother Francis Xavier and
Brother Leo Hyacinth.
GN:
Hyacinth.
JADK:
And Brother Francis Xavier taught the History and the Math. Brother Leo
Hyacinth taught the Chemistry, Physiology and French and Brother Paul
Ambrose taught English Composition and English Literature. These subjects
were the foundations for our work in college academics leading us… Well,
basically we were given with a normal school-like situation.
GN:
Now what do you mean by normal school?
JADK:
By normal school I envision people who are studying to be teachers and
in the early days and in the 18
th
, early 19
th
century, early 20
th
century, a lot of
Normal school prepared teachers and after two years, they taught and that’s all
they did. We did two years and then we were destined to continue our studies at
Fordham University in New York.
GN:
So your time coming here, there was not a four-year college. It was only a
two-year college.
JADK:
It was a two-year college and we called it Marist Training School. It was
like a Normal school and we called it colloquially as the Scholasticate. And
Brother Paul Ambrose was known as the Master of Scholastics. He was like a
headmaster of a normal school.
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
9
GN:
Okay, talking about the physical plant, do you have in your mind’s eye a
vision of where you slept and where you studied and where you ate in those
years?
JADK:
Yes. Greystone, first of all start with Greystone. The top floor of
Greystone was the library and there was no librarian. One was Scholastics…
The Brothers were studying, we called them Scholastics. One of the scholastics
had that as an employment, a job. I was a librarian for one year looking after the
books and…
GN:
You didn’t have a budget though, did you?
JADK:
No budget. [Laughter] The middle floor of Greystone was a classroom
and the bottom floor was the chemistry lab and a classroom and to the…
GN:
West.
JADK:
West, to the west of Greystone was a building that was known in those
days as the Marian building and the main entrance to that opened onto a rather
large room, which was used as a classroom, as an auditorium and as a study
room. To the left or south of that room was a washroom and beyond that were
rooms that we called the Pullman. The Pullman was a set of about four or five
rooms on either side, the front of which had curtains. That’s why it was likened to
a Pullman. These were rooms where second year Scholastics slept. First year
Scholastics slept over in the Hermitage, what we called the Hermitage, which
would be… What is that, MacPherson?
GN:
I thought yea, MacPherson’s building.
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
10
JADK:
Which had been recently vacated by the juniors who went over to
Esopus.
GN:
Okay.
JADK:
Back to the Marian building, the upper floor was occupied by a clothing
room and a tailor shop and then my second year there, it was converted into a
biology lab. My second year, the Pullman was changed to a classroom.
GN:
And more space is provided then in the Hermitage for, since the juniors
were gone, for the rest of the Scholastics to stay?
JADK:
Yea. Yea in my second year, all the Scholastics were over in the upper
floors of the Hermitage.
GN:
Again, just for clarity, the chapel was in the Hermitage and the refectory, so
all the cooking and eating was done there?
JADK:
Yea, we slept over there. We had Mass over there. We did all the
eating over there, all the meals were over there.
GN:
Okay. What year did you finish here then? Was it two years after that that
you…?
JADK:
I spent two years, right.
GN:
1945?
JADK:
’45, right.
GN:
Okay and what’s your first assignment then?
JADK:
My first assignment was as a cook in Esopus.
GN:
Okay.
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
11
JADK:
So in ’45, ’46, I cooked. Brother Eddie Volmer was my assistant and I
had various distinguished people whom I cooked for including a certain Gus
Nolan, who at that time, was a sophomore in high school. I cooked for Marty
Lang who was a junior.
GN:
Yes, right. He was a junior.
JADK:
A variety of other wonderful people.
GN:
Right, gone onto make their mark in this world in very limited ways.
[Laughter] Then moving on from that first assignment, what was your next
assignment?
JADK:
The next assignment was at the St. Ann’s Academy in New York City,
76
th
and Lex, and I was there for ten years.
GN:
Ten years? What did you teach at St. Ann’s Academy?
JADK:
I started teaching fifth grade. I taught fifth grade one and a half years. In
those days, grammar schools on Long Island graduated some students in the
middle of the year and as a result, St. Ann’s had a habit of accommodating
midyear graduates, taking them in as freshman and doing a full freshman year
and a half year. So I was promoted to homeroom teacher of one of those
halfway through my second year and I taught two classes of algebra to get the
full year in and two classes of English to get the full year in. Paul Stokes, I think
taught something else.
GN:
Yea, we didn’t talk about your major. What was actually your major in
college or…?
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
12
JADK:
At… Here in Poughkeepsie, Paul Ambrose… I was kind of leaning to the
math but Paul Ambrose said we had loads of math teachers and we needed
English teachers so “You seem to be able to write pretty good so why don’t you
become an English major?” which I did.
GN:
What were some of the other activities you were involved in at St. Ann’s?
JADK:
Well, the only extracurricular activity that I had at St. Ann’s to my
knowledge was the Sodality, that was one.
GN:
And there was something about an introduction of a new concept in terms
of cells, groups or cell…?
JADK:
You know, someplace along the line, we introduced that.
GN:
Now what was the purpose? Was there a follow-up of that? Was there an
action program that followed this…?
JADK:
We… I don’t know how we get into that but in any case, instead of
dealing with students who were part of the Sodality as a group, we tended to
bring them into small units of five or six and bring out some thought and have
them discuss it and share their ideas. That was sort of it in those days, I guess.
GN:
Okay. In time though, you get another assignment which is to teach, to
direct the operation in Tyngsboro. Where is Tyngsboro? Well, maybe I’m
jumping something.
JADK:
Wait, before we get to that, can I go back to the Sodality?
GN:
Yes, please do.
JADK:
I wonder where all this would be useful and important. Because we were
doing… I had an assistant, Brother Ulrich Channel, one of my assistants and
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
13
later on [Cocoa], I forget what his name was. He was also an assistant but
anyhow, things were going pretty good and as a result we had a meeting in the
library of St. Ann’s of all the Sodality moderators in the New York area and it was
interesting leading up to that. One of the things we had at the meeting was to
invite a Jesuit priest who was well-known for his Sodality work at the time and
Father LaFarge, (S.J.) I think him name was. And to set up that meeting I went
over to the St. Ignatius Church to meet with him and do what was necessary to
get him to come over and in so doing, he took me to his room or office wherever
it was and we pass a room and he pointed out that that man, that priest there
was a paleontologist who had just come back from China and he didn’t introduce
me to him but my conclusion is that that was…
GN:
Chardin.
JADK:
Father Teilhard de Chardin. So that’s sort of an interesting episode in
my mind.
GN:
Yea.
JADK:
That I missed the opportunity to actually speak with him. So to get to
your question, what did I…?
GN:
Okay, moving onto Tyngsboro. Where is Tyngsboro?
JADK:
Tyngsboro is in Massachusetts up outside of Lowell, Massachusetts and
on the border of New Hampshire, just south of Nashua.
GN:
Okay, and could you describe a little bit this property in Tyngsboro. Is it
much different form the property in Poughkeepsie or Esopus or is it… Are they
pretty much all the same pattern?
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
14
JADK:
Well, yea. It had had the pattern of Poughkeepsie in the earlier days
because it had the farm and you had the farmer. So Tyngsboro, when I was
there, was a Novitiate and the students did their studies but in so far as the their
time on the farm of course there was an opportunity there for them to do all kinds
of farm work and a lot of these people were from New York so coming to there,
this was really quite a… Partly a novel and partly a challenge, you know? We
had people go into the… When they first came, of course the corn was coming in
and while I would kind of shoot the corn into the silo and somebody in the silo
had to move the corn around so it would settle and it became intoxicating in
there. [Laughter]
GN:
Yea, right. That’s an interesting concept that the Marist Brothers, we were
founded in a farm-like situation and when they came to this country, it was pretty
much a continuation of that.
JADK:
Well, here in Poughkeepsie and in Tyngsboro.
GN:
Yea, yea. And a lot of the recruits that become Marist Brothers were not
farmers. They had come from the big city and didn’t know much about cows or…
JADK:
Yea.
GN:
Corn or silent or anything related to that. Okay, continuing on in Tyngsboro,
how long were you there?
JADK:
Ten years.
GN:
Another ten years? You don’t move very much.
JADK:
Well, it seems [as though… ].
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
15
GN:
Could you say something about the interrelationship while you were there of
the programs at the Novitiate and Marist College? Were some of them degree
programs? Were they following… Were the students there beginning to get
courses that were college-based?
JADK:
Yes. My first year, I was the Assistant Master of Novices and the people
who were there the first year are known as Postulants were really going… First
year of college for them, which was geared to the program here in
Poughkeepsie. It was the link in with what was going on here. And the second
year course was dominantly religious or theological formation and… But there
was usually one course that might have been linked in with the program here at
the college.
GN:
So that… I’m getting at the fact that there’s a kind of a satellite college in
New England that’s part of Marist, an extension of Marist, as there was in
Esopus.
JADK:
Yes.
GN:
And the interchange. Was there any visitation from the college people at
that time?
JADK:
Well, Paul Ambrose would come but very interesting too, the very first
time that Marist College was up for accreditation, a representative of that team
came to Tyngsboro just to look at Tyngsboro and to sit with me and interview me.
GN:
Yes, incidentally, one came to Esopus also…
JADK:
Is that right?
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
16
GN:
And the interesting question he had is why did the college choose
Poughkeepsie and then Esopus as its center of development. He saw Esopus
as a much more rural and majestic campus to develop rather than outside the
city of Poughkeepsie.
JADK:
Yea.
GN:
And he was right. Were there any outstanding students from your percep-
… Let’s put the question maybe another way. Can you talk about some of the
memorable people that you dealt with either on staff or students that came to you
while you were in Tyngsboro.
JADK:
Well, you know, my second year of course I was in charge and I had
some wonderful people as my helpers there, most importantly which would be
Brother Edmund G. Driscoll. Brother John Frances Colbert was also very helpful
to me. Later on we had Bill Murphy, John Bosco, John Malich, people that were
very helpful to me over that ten year period. Outstanding students my first year
there, when I was just a helper. I was the assistant. That class was a fantastic
class, a lot of very memorable people like John Wilcox and…
GN:
John Wilcox now is teaching in Manhattan and he majored in theology.
JADK:
And then Nathan, I can picture faces but I can’t think of the names all of
a sudden. Who’s the priest in Leo right there?
GN:
Owen Lafferty.
JADK:
Owen Lafferty, Pasquariello, a lot of very smart guys in that class.
GN:
Did Sean Sammon ever come through you?
JADK:
Yea, he was… My last year there, he was one of my students, yes.
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
17
GN:
Yea.
JADK:
In between there were a lot of other memorable people, yes.
GN:
Okay, along with this development of the college and the relation to
Tyngsboro and then the college developing some other institutes. The Institute
of Spirituality was developed. The institute was…
JADK:
MIT.
GN:
The MIT, Marist Institute of Theology, okay. Unlike you now, I’m beginning
to get confused in the terms here. What was your perception of that and did you
participate in it?
JADK:
When it first started, my recollection is it was started by Marty Lang and
Leonard and there may have been a third one. Leonard Voegtle…
GN:
Yes.
JADK:
And of course I was very much for this and I think I visited some of the
sessions in the summer, a couple of them but that was towards the end of my
time in Tyngsboro.
GN:
Right. Okay, from Tyngsboro, how did you see the college? Was there a
transfer in administration here? Had Brother Paul left and had Brother Linus…
Linus with him, Linus Foy, come on since?
JADK:
I think during my time in Tyngsboro, Linus did take over, yes, because…
GN:
About ’68, ’69.
JADK:
Brother Ambrose had become an Assistant General.
GN:
Yes.
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
18
JADK:
And I don’t know who… Things in Tyngsboro continued to run smoothly
with the college here, yes.
GN:
Yea, but there was never any interaction? You were not ever responsible
to report to the college authorities? The provinces were the official administrative
people that you had to deal with rather than the college?
JADK:
Yes.
GN:
Is that right?
JADK:
Yes but at the same time, the college, our working with the college was
very harmonious.
GN:
Yes. Well, for other reasons we have said before then that some of those
courses or all the apostolate courses were really part of a college program.
JADK:
Yea, yea.
GN:
On this, maybe some removed and difficult concepts. Brother Paul had
been here at the beginning and he’s replaced by Linus and I’m not sure where
you are in this transfer and if it ever did affect you. So that you could say that the
administration of one was quite different than the administration of the other.
JADK:
From the point of view at Tyngsboro, I don’t recall many problems or any
significant change, no.
GN:
Okay. Why don’t we move onto another aspect of your life. Where did you
settle after you left the canonical state of Brotherhood? Did you go to
Connecticut or did you go to New York, or where?
JADK:
Well, maybe before… Can we just back up a little bit? I did, you know
that Marist Institute of Theology which we were talking about a moment ago. I
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
19
was asked to become director of that and I was director of that for the last two
years. You know, organizing the people who were coming…
GN:
To give the lectures?
JADK:
To give them and…
GN:
As well as the students? I mean, the student body...
JADK:
Yea, we were recruiting, trying to recruit the students and we put ads in
the NCR at a time when the only ads in there were ours and maybe one other.
You know, those were the early days of the NCR when they didn’t have a whole
lot of advertisements. But anyhow, move on.
GN:
Well, your experience at the MIT then gave you a wider specter. You were
still involved in Tyngsboro or is this a separate part of…?
JADK:
Well, I entered Tyngsboro and then went to Rome for the chapter III and
when I came back from the first session of my chapter, that’s when there was a
vacancy for directing, leading the MIT.
GN:
Right.
JADK:
And they asked me to fill in.
GN:
Okay, there was a point they wanted to make earlier a European study work
as a Marist Brother both in the second Novitiate and also then at the chapter.
JADK:
And I was…
GN:
Some acquaintances you met then have been long-lasting, have they not?
JADK:
Excuse me?
GN:
Some of your acquaintances at the chapter on European studies have been
long-lasting?
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
20
JADK:
Yea, I studied in Europe in ’56 to ’57, yes, in France and then I went
back to Rome in ’67 and ’68 I think it was.
GN:
Okay. Then moving on, you leave the canonical state would you say, of
Brotherhood and you marry and live in Connecticut?
JADK:
Yes and taught in the Litchfield Connecticut school system, yes, and I
taught there for eleven years.
GN:
This is up one now. It’s been ten and ten, now it’s eleven so we’re making
some progress. [Laughter] You’re getting a little more stability I think in your
stays.
JADK:
Yea, so after the eleventh year there, that’s when I reached sixty-five.
No, I reached sixty years of age at the end of that eleven years and the system
was trying to unload the older people in favor of the people who didn’t cost them
as much. So they gave me a “golden handshake”, which in those days was the
early days of “golden handshakes” and they weren’t very great. I think it was
about $2,000, something like that. And on retiring from there, then I went to get a
job in a Catholic school in Waterbury, Connecticut, which was run by the Holy
Cross Brothers. Are you still interested in…?
GN:
Oh, yes. Yes.
JADK:
I taught there for five years until I was sixty-five, at which time I decided
it’s time to throw in the sponge for teaching full-time at least, you know?
GN:
Full-time. And did you take up any other activity then?
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
21
JADK:
Well, at that time I had already gotten into doing income taxes. So I did
income taxes for a stretch of about ten years about four years beyond the high
school experience.
GN:
Teach? I see. Then what caused you to look towards the south and move
to Florida? What was the inspiration to do that?
JADK:
Well, after retiring, the general thought was maybe you should look into
retirement in Florida and so we decided one day in December to go on down to
scout around Florida and see what would be available. And the reason we went
in December was that I was teaching tax courses in the fall, September, October
and November. So those courses ended in November and I’m looking to go
south in December.
GN:
Okay, standing back I’d like to see what your perspective would be at Marist
College now. Can you talk holistically as it were in terms of saying what do you
feel the college has gained from your first initial contact with it to now, fifty-five or
sixty years later? Did you envision that this might ever happen?
JADK:
Oh, no. I could never envision this would happen when I was here as a
student, no. I think the… I dare say that it has been a wonderful development,
totally unexpected and frankly, I’m proud of it. I enjoyed coming here. When I
have Marist College literature, I’m happy to show it to other people. In a way, it’s
too bad that it’s not still involved with the Marist Brothers as much as it was.
GN:
That’s my next question. What has it lost do you think?
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
22
JADK:
Well, I think the whole way of life of the past is gone and that’s, from
some point of view, that’s too bad but time goes on and maybe this is a whole
providential. This is the way it’s meant to go, you know?
GN:
Okay, moving into the period now of your retirement which is probably ten
years or more that you have been in Florida…
JADK:
I love it.
GN:
In retirement. What things are you doing now?
JADK:
What am I doing now? [Laughter]
GN:
Yea. Are you teaching? Are you involved in any social work? Are you
involved in activities?
JADK:
Well, we are involved in what we call “The Healing Development.”
Working out at the parish down there we help to staff a system whereby poor
people come in for help, food and various other needs that they may have. They
run short on their… They get behind on their water bill or utilities bill and are
threatened to be cut off and the parish has a fund that enables us to help them
tie them over a bit. And it’s up to us to make the judgment of whether, how much
and whether we should give them, write out a check for this.
GN:
Okay. Does this distract you after you have involved your two hours a week
with this? Do you think about it later or can you go there and leave it behind you
or do you take it home with you?
JADK:
I think that basically we leave it behind. Once in a while we come away
though with, you know, with lots of “How can people be in these situations in
life?” you know?
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
23
GN:
Yea. Okay. That’s one activity. I would really miss if I didn’t ask you about
thing called
Marist’s All
, for the sake of the Archives.
JADK:
For the sake of the Archives. [Laughter]
GN:
How would you describe this venture? What is it to you?
JADK:
I don’t know what to say about this.
GN:
Well, I mean maybe another… Different, we can brainstorm a little on it.
This is certainly a magnificent contribution I think in the totality of the years and
the amount of work that has gone into it. The sixty-eighth issue I think I think is
going to be published soon.
JADK:
Yea.
GN:
Well, what impact do you think it’s had?
JADK:
Well, first of all the things started out of the blue. At the time that you
and I talked about it, the idea that there was a Province newsletter that was
maybe in the days of the Province and it was interesting material for me and for
those of us who were not canonically with the congregation. I appreciated… I
think we appreciated reading these things and so the idea evolved that maybe
there ought to be something that would cater to the needs of everybody, those
who were in and those who were out. So it started out and was received well
and the letters we have received indicate that everybody got a lot out of it and
those that read it are overwhelmed by the types of activity that people are
involved in. So many of them are involved in social services and human needs
at one point or another, either teaching or guidance and what have you.
GN:
And most of these people are Marist College graduates, are they not?
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
24
JADK:
They’re saying that they all are.
GN:
Yea.
JADK:
Or at least have attended Marist College. They may have gotten their
actual degree elsewhere but they’re a great, great majority of Marist College
graduates.
GN:
So we could rightly say this is a continuation of the work of a college
through its graduates afterwards. Former students who are doing these things
that have impressed so many other people.
JADK:
Yea.
GN:
More specifically, as I said, this sixty-eighth issue, what would you say is,
on a typical issue, what’s the amount of time that you have to invest in it? Is
there any way of judging that?
JADK:
That’s very hard to say. Everyone had come up with a… In less than a
year. You know, normally it gets published in quarterly and sometimes more
frequently but nonetheless. Let’s say if it’s published quarterly, that means three
months between one issue and the next, right. So with the first month and month
and a half, there’s a little bit of time and as things accumulate, the second month
or month and a half, there’s more time to put into it. Exactly how much, I could
never say.
GN:
But when you’re putting time into it, you’re talking about one or two hours a
day?
JADK:
Oh, yea.
GN:
In typing and rewriting and editing, searching things out and proofreading.
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
25
JADK:
Yea.
GN:
Okay. Were there any disappointments in it?
JADK:
No, I would say not.
GN:
Maybe in one or two who have decided that they would not respond.
JADK:
Oh, yea. Yea. I’m starting to get foggy. [Laughter]
GN:
Yea, but that’s so minimal because I can just remember there’s only maybe
two that have of more than… I think we have a mailing list of maybe 500.
JADK:
Yea.
GN:
And if over the fifty years, two people have said that I’m not interested in
receiving this anymore.
JADK:
Oh, yea. Yea, I didn’t know that’s what you meant. You know, out of
them. Yea, that’s right. In fact, at one point we… There were a number of
people that we had never heard from and never written or anything and so we
wrote to them to say, you know, “If you’re really interested in this, let us now” and
at that point, there were I dare to say four or five that said “Okay, don’t send us
anymore.”
GN:
Yea, but they all mailed a response. Even from those who had not written,
they still wanted to receive it.
JADK:
They still… Yea, they came through and said “Yes, keep me on the list.”
GN:
Yea, right.
JADK:
Many of them said I’m just not a writer, you know, I don’t know what to
say.
GN:
No one’s interested in what I’ve done.
Interviewee: David Kammer
May 30, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
26
JADK:
Yea, they really wanted to continue to receive it and one of the benefits
of the newsletter I dare say is the fact that we have maintained through it a
certain… the same type of camaraderie and friendship that existed when we
were together as a team, you know…
GN:
Yea.
JADK:
In the congregation.
GN:
Okay. I really have nothing more to say. Is there anything I didn’t ask that
maybe you would like to say in terms of this interview?
JADK:
At this point, I’m sort of punchy. [Laughter] I sort of have fallen down so
I just think probably…
GN:
Well, we can come back again and revisit this or letters can be sent to us
here and revisions can be made if indeed. But we thank you very much.
JADK:
Thank you very much. It’s been a pleasure and a privilege.
“END OF INTERVIEW”