Norman, Robert.xml
Media
Part of Robert Norman Oral History
content
Robert Norman
Marist College
Poughkeepsie, NY
Transcribed by Nancy Decker
For the Marist College Archives and Special Collections
Transcript - Robert Norman
Interviewee:
Robert Norman, Professor Emeritus at Marist College
Interviewer:
Gus Nolan
Interview Date:
November 29, 2001
Location:
Fontaine Building
Subject Headings:
Norman, Robert
Marist College—Faculty
Marist College. Communication Department
Summary:
Robert Norman talks about his early life careers and how it led him to
work at Marist College (Marian College). He also discusses his work in founding the
Radio major and how he helped get Lowell Thomas involved with the school and build a
lasting partnership. Robert also reflects on his work in creating the internship programs,
how much continued success it has brought the school, and where he sees it going.
Robert Norman
1
Gus Nolan:
Bob, I would like to ask you a few questions about your personal
life first, biographical questions. What is your full name Bob?
Robert Norman:
Robert II Coldrow, Tom Casey found out what that was, he
used to call me Coldrum; Robert Coldrow Norman, that’s my mothers maiden
name; Coldrow.
GN:
Were you named after another member of the family?
RN:
No, no.
GN:
Not the Robert?
RN:
No, not the Robert.
GN:
Where were you born and when?
RN:
I was born in Media Pennsylvania, that's outside Philadelphia, in nineteen
twenty-five.
GN:
Do you have any siblings, and what are their names?
RN:
My sister, was four years older than I, she passed away. As you know, my
mother passed away; you came to her funeral.
GN:
Yeah. Where did you grow up?
RN:
And my father.
GN:
What about your hometown, did you grow up where you were born or
did you move?
Robert Norman
2
RN:
We had to move somewhere else after my father died I was nine
years old the family moved to Olean, New York, where my maternal
grandmother lived, and we moved there. My mother was very sick and for
awhile, I lived in Pennsylvania and I was passed from one uncle or aunt to
another down there, and when she got well, I went back to her in Olean.
GN:
What about your early education as a young man, where did you go to
grade school?
RN:
Olean High School, graduated in nineteen forty-four. Went right into the
army, and I was in the army about three years; I served in the Philippines. I
got out of the army in nineteen, early forty-six and I came home. I worked as a
liquor salesman for a while.
GN:
Let's go back to the army, what were your roles in the army? Was there
any communications in those early years?
RN:
Well, I was in the infantry and also in ordinance, later on I was in
ordinance.
GN:
What about college, when you came out of the army?
RN:
When I came out of the army, I worked in radio in a small station in
Bradford, Pennsylvania. I had worked in the Olean station before I went
in the army. I was one of the people, who opened the station in Bradford,
Pennsylvania across the state line. My ideal was to become a radioman,
and my mother and father had both been teachers; they wanted me to be a
Robert Norton
3
teacher, but I was stuck on radio, I was really wedded to it. I worked in
that and television for a while and finally I got smart and came to Marist.
GN:
Well, before you get to Marist, you recently lost your wife, Camille when
were you married and where?
RN:
We were married in New Paltz, in nineteen fifty-four, fifty-five, and the
year after I got home.
GN:
And your children now, how many children do you have?
RN:
Judy, who is the oldest, Bobby and then the youngest is Jim.
GN:
Ok. I think Jim is the one I know the best; he's in the area here, what does
he do?
RN:
He's with the CIA; he was with Marist as the Alumni Director, but now
he's been with the CIA for a few years I guess.
GN:
This is for the historical record, the CIA is the
RN:
It’s The Culinary Institute of America, not the,
CIA.
(Laughter)
GN:
We just want to clarify that for our historical reasons. Since your
retirement, what has been your principle interests Bob?
RN:
Since I have retired, I haven't been too busy; I was sick for awhile and in
the hospital. I used to come over for some of the fun here. I didn't
do too much at all after I retired, I retire at seventy? I wasn't well. I was
going to go back to radio, because I had an opportunity to do that in New
York, but I didn't.
Robert Norman
4
GN:
Ok, let's get back to your coming to Marist. When did you first come to
the college?
RN:
I first came to the college in nineteen sixty, as a part timer.
GN:
And what were the circumstances under which you came?
RN:
They wanted somebody to teach radio. Radio was becoming big and they
wanted somebody to teach radio and I taught radio and I had a degree in
Journalism from St. Bonaventure, and a Masters degree in Communications from
Syracuse at the time. So, I came here and I taught that one course and then I was
asked if I would like to stay full time.
GN:
How did you break out to doing other things, like public relations and
announcing, and speed reading; I remember taking a speed reading course with
you.
RN:
Oh yes, I remember that Gus. Well, that's when I was working, I guess I
was working part time then. I was working for Dr. Schroeder, the night director.
GN:
Yes and his name slips my mind, Schroeder, Dr. John Schroeder. Do you
have any clear remembrances of your early days in the English department; how
big was it?
RN:
It wasn't big at all, there were Dr. Schroeder, myself, George Sommer the
Chairman, and then I think he hired, I don't remember the person he hired but I
think the person had a couple part timers in there. I think maybe the first one he
hired was…
Robert Norman
5
GN:
Maybe Bob Lewis?
RN:
No, no, before Bob Lewis, I think Milton came.
GN:
Oh, Milton, Dr. Teichman?
RN:
Yeah.
GN:
I'm just saying these names so that…. and then in terms of teaching in
those early years, was it principally the communication aspect of it although it
was not a communication major yet?
RN:
I taught English, now that you mention it.
GN:
You taught English.
RN:
I picked up another degree in English Literature from Manhattan, and I
really liked it. I didn't realize that I really liked English as much as I did until I
went to Manhattan and got to learn a little more as a student, and at the same time
I was teaching here full time.
GN:
Ok, at what point did the notion of developing an internship program
come to your mind and what's the genesis of that, can you remember that Bob?
RN:
I remember I thought for a long time that would be a possibility, but then I
thought that since a liberal arts school might not be interested in that, someone
like Dutchess, somebody likes that, and I did this course for Dutchess and it
worked out so well that when I got to Marist, I felt I would like to try it here, so I
designed a program and it worked out.
Robert Norman
6
GN:
Before the program, there were initial steps of people first beginning to do
them. If you had to say, this is one of the first placements that we had, where
would that be, in the internship program?
RN:
In the internship program, out of town, that would be CBS.
GN:
CBS.
RN:
The first one would be, a gal named Tracy, I can't remember her now, but
the second one became very successful and stayed on there, Gigi Birdis who
became very successful at CBS.
GN:
Right, her father was also a radioman.
RN:
He was a radio manager down in Peekskill.
GN:
Yes, I forget the name of the station now, one-o-one point seven.
RN:
WHUD
GN:
WHUD, right. There was a gradual development I think, of the program
from its inception to where it eventually became. As that happened, was there a
model or were you doing this pretty much off, creating it as you went? In other
words, was there any other college that you saw that had a significant program
that we were in any way imitating or?
RN:
No, we didn't imitate, there was another college that had it before we did,
but ran it a lot different, in a different way, and that was Emerson in Boston.
GN:
Emerson College, yes.
RN:
That's the only one I remember. Syracuse had it.
Robert Norman
7
GN:
Where there is advanced, do they allow students to take more than three
credits or six credits?
RN:
In Emerson, they did. I'm not sure, I don't remember about Syracuse,
whether they did or not. They taught first, they had some great people teaching,
built quite a reputation.
GN:
One of the big points that was developed in this program, was the ability
of students to actually take a semester or twelve credits and go in a distant
program, either in New York, or Philadelphia, or Boston. How did that happen?
Did you have to argue your way through or was there? I want you to tell me
about it.
RN:
Oh yeah, there were a lot of people that didn't like it, but I'll tell you one
thing, I'm not telling any tales out of school; Joe Belanger said oh on that’s
rinky-dink we don't want that, that's a disaster.
GN:
That's a disaster. That's not academic.
RN:
After he monitored some people doing internships in the foreign language
area, in France, and boy he thought it was a great idea.
GN:
I guess he came full circle where he wasn’t then he was back on board.
Could you tell us some of those interesting stories of people who are now
legendary in the alumni, I don't know, Doc Doherty maybe or somebody, or
Smokey McKiernan, did any of those fellows take internships or did it come later
on?
Robert Norman
8
RN:
They came a little later on.
G
N:
I'm going to give you a name, how about Mary Ryan? Fire Department.
What was the connection, going to the Fire Department would seem to have been
RN:
That was John Mulligan, and that started that. We had the internship
program and he was, at one time in charge of public relations and needed an
assistant. Mary was perfect, and she went down there and got the job, the
internship turned into a job.
GN:
I hate to say this publicly but I think she was the first and he has said
maybe the best that went to the fire department.
RN:
That could very well be, she was very well thought about.
GN:
Happily married now I think and living in Brooklyn, in the area of, the
beach area, Rocky Point or Stoney Hill or something like that, I forget the name
of it. ( Breezy Point)
RN:
She was a good friend of Gigi Birdis.
GN:
Right.
RN:
Gigi Birdis’s father was a programming director, so I knew him quite well,
but I hadn’t known her until she came to Marist. She went to work for Lou
Adler and became the tour director.
GN:
Speaking of these events, Lou Adler for-instance then the coming on of
the Lowell Thomas awards and then we used to give a communication award,
where was that done and how was that decided?
RN:
That was first done in another venue; it wasn't done in the glamorous hotel
Robert Norman
9
that we have it done in. It was done in a, I forget the name of it, it was on Third
Avenue, it was a good hotel.
GN:
The Warwick?
RN:
The Warwick.
GN:
Bob, that's on Sixth Avenue, across from the New York Hilton.
RN:
That's right. I used to look fondly at the New York Hilton and think boy, I
wish we could have the meeting there. We had the first meeting where we
presented awards and we had a guest speaker, that was when Dennis Murray
first came to town..
GN:
Yes.
RN:
Lou Adler was telling myself and Dennis Murray that we should look
upscale a little bit, get a better hotel. So we did. Eventually he became a member
of our Advisory Council and helped us a great deal.
GN:
That's right, I had forgotten all about the Advisory Council. Do you
remember the genesis of that? How did that happen?
RN:
Well, a lot of the people on the Advisory Council were people that I
worked with in radio or television and are people that I knew. We asked them,
could I set up a committee and we went after a few of them. We had pretty good
number there at one time, Advisor Council members, and when someone from
Marist would go out and make good, like for example, Gigi Birdis became a
member and did us a lot of good. She was of course speaking for Marist and have
an affinity to Marist and knew they would work extra hard. We got them.
Robert Norman
10
GN:
And Bill O'Rielly?
RN:
And Bill O'Reilly.
GN:
I remember him coming to one of those things and causing a stir.
RN:
He used to come up here for meetings.
GN:
That's the second one I was going to ask you. Wasn't there one year in the
city where you would meet and then one year here? They would come up the
night before and some would stay over night either before or after.
RN:
John Mulligan and friends.
GN:
Yes, I remember that indeed. Then the fact, one day we used to have a
conference all day, people were able to meet these pretty high-powered people
and discuss with them possibilities of professional placements.
RN:
I remember Sam Donaldson at one of our dinners, sat next to me and said,
"You know Bob, that guy is really good, I think we're going to hire him." They
hired him, Larry, when you get to be seventy-six, (Laughter) the names over the
years, this guy, his name is Larry; he went to work for them and got the job.
GN:
In fact he did an internship in London I think, didn't he?
RN:
Yes he did, that's right.
GN:
I can remember the credits; Jeptha Lanning would have the name.
RN:
He was a pretty good friend of Sam Donaldson.
GN:
Ok, there's a part of this that I think only you can appreciate, and
articulate some of the difficulties and how they were resolved. Going on
Robert Norman
11
internship program is one; there are not some legal problems and insurance
problems and remuneration problems, how did you handle those things?
RN:
Well, the financial problems were pretty well set in place because
they punched a punch machine and they had to be there a certain time and they
had to have so many credits to become that and they had a couple of tough
interviews before they were permitted to do that. Then they had another, and then
a few of them got out in the street and they were accompanied by union men out
on the street. They let them go for certain things, not on air, but get information
and bring it back. That's how they started to get good things and they were hired,
a lot of them were hired. Mike McCarthy, who's now the, well last time I heard,
he was vice president, I think he's president of the program.
GN:
Madison Square Garden?
RN:
That's right. He was one of those, he wanted to go to ABC, I know
because this is new. He went to Madison Square Garden, considered coming to
start building a new program (inaudible mumble).
GN:
How did you handle the problem of students who thought that they
shouldn't have to pay for credits for taking internship credits? Do you remember
some students balking at that?
RN:
Oh yeah, they balked at that.
GN:
And they said, "What is the college providing?"
RN:
Yeah, Yeah.
Robert Norman
12
GN:
And you told them that without the college
RN:
Without the college, you wouldn't be there.
GN:
They wouldn't be there, that's the simple fact of the matter.
RN:
Some of them were paid, we had two kinds, and we had a paid internship
and an unpaid internship. IBM, they had to pay them or they couldn't go.
GN:
Yes.
RN:
Certain companies did give them some of the sweetness and goodies, but
they couldn't pay them as an employee; because they weren't union. IBM wasn't
union, so they could do that. There were a lot of people that said, students would
come in and say, "Well if I don't get paid, why should I put my time in?" I said,
"That we’re outside looking in and the other guy that put in his time got the
job then you will understand why."
GN:
There's another swing on this Bob, wasn't there, that some students would
like the name of New York, but they were better off going to Kingston and
getting a hand on experience.
RN:
Some of that's true, that is true, cause some of them, they got more
hands on because of the lack of union restriction, they didn’t have any unions so
they could be on the air, they could do a lot of things that they couldn't do while
they were in New York.
GN:
Actually do the taping and do the camera work?
RN:
Yes, it's very prestigious to go to New York, but your not much value to
them. If a small station is looking for you to edit or to write a story or be in that
Robert Norman
13
capacity, they could do it in a small station and that's why we had the two-step.
The first step was a small station in their hometown and the second step was in
the summer and they could do whatever they wanted and the second step was the
paid internships at the high-end places like New York and Chicago and Buffalo
and places like that.
GN:
Philadelphia.
RN:
We had a great community, Philadelphia had the most stations, three
stations.
GN:
Yeah. What were some of the principle rewards that comes to you now,
thinking about your involvement there. As you reflect back on it, certainly there's
some satisfaction that all these kids.
RN:
You’re talking about internships?
GN:
Yes.
RN:
Well, I got a lot of letters thanking me for getting the internship for them
and from their parents and so forth, more than I expected. Sometimes you don't
get that as a teacher.
GN:
Yes, yes.
RN:
You don’t get the letters. It was kind of nice to see them do well.
GN:
There was more of a personal involvement?
RN:
Oh, yes, you went to see them. You were the only teacher that they saw
during the internship.
Robert Norman
14
GN:
And they were the only students.
RN:
They were the only students.
GN:
Something like
Tuesday with Morrie.
You’re the only teacher.
RN:
That's the only one. You’ve got to be on hand because there
were so many. For example, at NBC, I don't think I ever had less than fifteen
people at one site, and you would have CBS, ABC, NBC and also.
GN:
Madison Square Garden?
RN:
The great experiences they had in public relations, your field.
GN:
Oh yes, like with Mr. Daly?
RN:
Yes, Owen Daly hired quite a few of them out in California. He's got his
own agency.
GN:
Yes, yes. Even in New York, he took them in and was instrumental in
doing a number of things; and maybe you could talk about this Bob, Owen Daly
was probably one of the key people who were advisors to the college, not just the
internship program.
RN:
He took that very seriously.
GN:
On the creation of the famous award, the Lowell Thomas Award, I think
you were there in the beginning of that; how did that happen?
RN:
Well, we wanted to give an award and give it a name, and Lowell Thomas
had been close to the college; I had met him several times and he worked at CBS
when I was here, so there was a relationship with Lowell Thomas before he even
Robert Norman
15
spoke at the college. He knew Marist at the time, and he was very good to us.
GN:
Were you instrumental in getting him to come talk to that graduation class,
which was his last public appearance?
RN:
Yes, that's right. He was an amazing man.
GN:
Yes, at the tender age of about eighty-five.
RN:
He was a good golfer.
GN:
Yes, he was a good golfer; a good writer and we have a lot of the
paraphernalia of Lowell Thomas.
RN:
Good voice, what a voice he had. When I was a young kid in
Philadelphia, my father used to listen to Lowell Thomas all the time on the radio,
so I had to listen to him. He said, "Some day I hope you can be able to have as
good a voice as he does." I never did, but he had some voice, just a natural voice.
GN:
Yes.
RN:
So long until tomorrow. (Laughter)
GN:
I was waiting for you to say something like that, because Bob as you
know, you have been gifted also with a beautiful voice and we’ve capitalized on it
over the years here at the college having you do a number of commercials and
interviews and radio announcements; and thank God it's still there. And you can
still speak and maybe you will speak to these problems now; what do you think
about some changes that have taken place in the college? For instance the
coming of co-eds, was that a good thing, or…
Robert Norman
16
RN:
Well, the guy's didn't think it was a good thing when it started, the
male students, and they said, "Oh, there goes the curve, that's it." Well, I think it
was a great thing, I think it was a good thing to do. Just think what would have
happened if we hadn't admitted women.
GN:
Eventually you have to do it.
RN:
So many of our women have done very well too. They sort of balanced
the college, they gave balance, they gave a lot of class.
GN:
We thought they were going to enhance the code of dress, but actually I
don't think that really came to pass.
RN:
No, that didn't happen.
GN:
Refinement, somewhat, but the dress code is pretty much what it was.
Have there been romance relationships from the college that you are
aware of, students who married each other?
RN:
Jerry, the guy who was the editor of the Poughkeepsie Journal.
GN:
McNulty.
RN:
McNulty, he's working for the internship here, his wife?
GN:
Cathy Norton.
RN:
Cathy Norton, that's her name.
GN:
That's a good link that certainly we could put up here. Some good things
come out of it.
Robert Norman
17
RN:
There are a lot of others I can't think of off hand, but I
imagine that you could. I would like to keep the women involved more in the
college, alumnae, board or what ever. I think that means a great deal.
GN:
You have worked also now from the vantage point of looking at the
administration, were you here when Brother Paul was here?
RN:
Oh yeah.
GN:
So you would know Brother Paul?
RN:
Oh, yeah.
GN:
Ok, then he was followed by Dr. Foy, and then by Dr. Murray.
Let's just talk about…
RN:
Wait a minute; your not talking about Brother Paul Stokes are you?
GN:
Well, Brother Paul Stokes was here and then Brother Paul Ambrose was
the (president).
RN:
A little difference in personality.
GN:
A little different personality between them. Let's talk about Stokes, he
was the policeman on board, as it were, the Dean.
RN:
He loved to be called the Dean of Discipline and that's what he was.
GN:
Yes, and what images do you have of him as the Dean of Discipline?
Describe him physically; I forget what he looked like.
RN:
A little tiger, Jimmy Cagney type. He used to… I remember one thing,
he would be at the top of the stairs when I would come in, in the morning and he
Robert Norman
18
wouldn't say a word, but he would look at his watch. You knew you were a little
bit late. I want to tell you this, the greatest story I always tell that I thought was
so funny. You got to know Stokes to understand it though. John, he's on campus
now, he's still teaching. He was out in Chicago.
GN:
Scileppi?
RN:
He was out in Chicago studying decided to go over and visit Brother
Stokes at the school wherever it was; and he was on his way over there and he got
near the school, about half a block away, or a block away and he had a terrific
traffic jam and he was told to pull over. He got up to where the guy that told him
to pull over was, and there he was, Stokes, in his cassock, in the middle of the
street there, Madison Avenue whatever it was directing the traffic and keeping it
moving. John says, "Brother Stokes, Brother Stokes, how are you, I haven't seen
you in a long time, how have you been?" "Keep on going John, keep on going,
keep the traffic moving.” Here the guy hasn't seen him in some time and he was
so happy to see him, “keep it going.”
GN:
Work before pleasure.
RN:
Oh, he was something else.
GN:
Right.
RN:
And John Ambrose, what a delightful man, very quiet.
GN:
Paul Ambrose.
Robert Norman
19
RN:
Paul Ambrose, I'm sorry. He didn't work in that position long while I was
here, but he was a very nice man.
GN:
Right, and then comes Dr. Foy.
RN:
Hard worker.
GN:
What were your experiences?
RN:
Hard worker, he never sat still or stood still and he was a very nice man.
He was a soft-spoken man, but don't let it fool you. (Laughter) He was very,
very, good, he was in school for many years, and if it hadn't been for Foy, I don't
know what they would have done at that time.
GN:
Right, now the college was really a very small and unpretentious place by
standards of other colleges, what kept you here? Could you see the promise of
this developing to what it is today?
RN:
Yeah, I think so. Of course it wasn't Marist when I came here.
GN:
It was Marian.
RN:
It was Marian, Marian College, and I stayed here a long time. I didn't
think I was going to be here that long because I had a job offer in Philadelphia at
WIP Philadelphia and I was going to go back down to my old hometown. I used
to live in Philadelphia. I was going back to Philadelphia, but my wife, you know,
her family is from up here and they had property and they kind of settled here and
we were settled in the house near the college and so I called up my friend and
said, "Thanks a lot, but no thanks." The guy I was going to work for ironically
Robert Norman
20
enough, was a classmate of mine at Bonaventure. The president of the college he
wanted someone to do sports, but what kept me away from that was, it was good,
it was Phillies; I think they did Princeton, football, baseball and basketball. When
I was younger, that would have been heaven. Camille said, "Do you know how
much you would be away from home with a schedule like that?" So I didn't take
it.
GN:
A wise move I think.
RN:
Oh, yeah. She was a wise person said oh come on you’re no kid any
more.
GN:
But you did do some broadcasting here, I remember some football games
played out there on Leonidoff Field in the evening, and there were lights they
said, not too bright. There was a fog, and I remember you’re trying to call a game
one night.
RN:
That's, your right; that was in nineteen, but it wasn't here it wasn't at
Leonidoff, it was down in Stizel Field.
GN:
Oh, in Poughkeepsie, oh yeah right.
RN:
I never saw anything that bad, I mean, they had a fog so bad, I had to have
a kid down in the field, not only spotters in the booth but a kid on the field to tell
me whether or not the guy caught the ball. Throw it, and that's all I could see, I
had one guy down there covering that guy and then the passer. (Laughter)
GN:
You won't believe this, but I heard that game in Esopus with Linus Foy.
Robert Norman
21
We were in Esopus that Saturday, and we were saying how incredible; I mean
even that we were on air was a big move that Marist College football was being
announced in the Hudson Valley.
RN:
Well you know the owners the other owners of the station, there were
three of us, the other two owners, they hated sports, wanted nothing to do with
sports and I had a heck of a time getting them to take the Marist games.
GN:
The other point I want to make about Linus Foy is the early development
that went on; he and Brother Nilus did some construction work, do you
remember that phase?
RN:
Oh absolutely, yeah we were building; when I got here full time, they
were building Donnelly and you were part of the work force. They were building
Donnelly and they would take them out of class and you could not run you
classroom. You would hear somebody say, "Hey, Nolan" …”Lanning.”
GN:
"Unload the blocks."
RN:
Yeah, and they would go out.
GN:
Happily. (Laughter)
RN:
Yeah, and I can remember on top, they seemed to hammer a little bit
harder over my classroom. You tell people that and they don't believe it.
GN:
That was good times.
RN:
What Linus used to do, I mean the college president?
GN:
I just saw that picture here, the Brothers that built their college, and it’s in
one of the offices and in Time Magazine, you have that picture there with the
Robert Norman
22
shovel.
RN:
Yes, with the shovel.
GN:
Ok, let's move into more current times. From Dr. Foy to Dr. Murray;
how would you describe the transition in terms of leadership and interaction with
the faculty; would you say something about that?
RN:
I'd say they both had some things in common. They got on pretty good
with the faculty. People didn't have too much trouble with Linus, he did not
have too much trouble with the faculty. They had entirely different styles,
completely different. Linus was quiet, a quiet steady worker.
GN:
And poorer, we had no money in those days.
RN:
We had no money, and the other fellow, Murray was a go-getter. I
remember one story was it Bill Murphy, no, it was Linus Foy, I had a lot of
trouble getting him to go out and speak in the beginning. I handled public
relations here to talk to someone, people in the community I would have been
there for example at the Kiwanis Club, First Friday Club and all that stuff. Why
don't you come out, meet with some people; he was pretty busy and I know he
was unhappy doing that, until I got Bill Martin, who by the way the built the Boat
House. His wife used to say, "That red M stands for Martin, not Marist."
(Laughter) He didn't like to go out and speak too much; as a matter of fact I
think he was kind of a shy guy.
GN:
Yes.
RN:
He came out of all of that. After you got to know him, he was pretty
Robert Norman
23
impressive.
GN:
Yes.
RN:
But he would come on as this shy person.
GN:
Yes Dr. Murray
RN:
Dr. Murray doesn't come off as a shy person.
GN:
No.
RN:
He moves right ahead.
GN:
A little more festive, fund-raising, PR.
RN:
Tom Casey told me one time, he said, "You know, we went out to talk
to a guy in the west he and I think John Ritschdorff, and Tom went out to speak
to this guy, and we came back and Tom Casey said, “He’s a time bomb”
"What do you mean?" "He talks a lot." Makes a lot of promises, but you will like
him because he's big on sports. I mean they were different types.
GN:
Yes.
RN:
One was aggressive, outwardly aggressive; one was aggressive, but
quietly aggressive; I don't know which is more advantageous. (Laughter)
GN:
We could turn the coin over, every time there's more positive
RN:
They were very successful, I mean both of them were very successful, but
at different times. It's a good thing you had Linus at that time and Murray at this
time rather than reversed.
GN:
Yes.
Robert Norman
24
RN:
I don't think they could have done it.
GN:
What do you think is Dr. Murray's major accomplishments here? Is it
the building, the Library itself for instance, the campus or the growth of the
college numerically. Where do you think his greatest input has come?
RN:
I think that he was able to develop a lot of sources for income. Somebody
else would go out and line them up.
GN:
Plant a seed? As it were.
RN:
Yes, and yet he would go out, John Lahey did the same thing. He would
tell him, you and so and so, you ought to go out and see him. Well ok, we would
have lunch and then that would be the end of me, I wouldn't want them anywhere.
They would take over, and Linus was very good at that and John was excellent.
GN:
I'm trying to think of another John.
RN:
And yet they are rivals now.
GN:
Yes, right, Lahey and Murray, you’re talking about. One, the president of
Quinnipiac, and the other the president of Marist; both in the same area really.
You’ve got the polls, public opinion polls, from one college or the other and…
RN:
I call him, John, you’re a copycat; you took that right away from Marist.
GN:
Yes, imitation the best form of honor. What would you see as the future
of Marist, Bob? Do you think that the role has been played and the development,
in terms of the technology and the programs that we have now are more solidly
based and this is where the college will be, or like ten years ago, we never knew
Robert Norman
25
we would be here. Can you take a shot into the future and say, "I think the
college will be going more toward distance education or would it be more of a
we’re going to build and expand ever more for boarders to come on board? How
do you feel now about that?
RN:
Well of course they would have the problem of space if they did that too
much, because I don't think they have too much more space. I think that probably
the accent will be on technology. Wedding that with traditional liberal arts. I
think technology is very important; I hate to admit that because I’m the worse
technical person in the world. I used to have fits every time I had to go out and
hook up lines for broadcasting. It's lucky thing it got on the air. I think that is
going to be a…
GN:
It's one of the assets that we have now in place and we're going to enhance
it.
RN:
Well with this article in the paper one day about Marist leading
technical areas in terms of studies.
GN:
Right. Let me end this way Bob, and say we've done a number of
historical things here; your views of different things is there something you would
like to add to this? If a new faculty member were to come and ask you, what
would you say to him or, would you encourage students to come here? What's
you’re feeling about this?
RN:
I think the area is great, it couldn't be better. I have a lot of faith in my
Alma mater, as much as you have in yours, St. Bonaventure. The St. Bonaventure
Robert Norman
26
of the future will never be a Marist. They are tucked up there, small town; here
you've got sort of an area of small towns. It goes pretty much that there is a lot of
potential here for getting to the public and I think to use that potential and I think
that… I remember one time at Marist when people were afraid of getting
something in the paper.
GN:
Yes.
RN:
Because they were afraid it would be negative. I remember that because I
used to send readers, all they said was cookie cutter reads, now everything is
fancy and if you feel good don't worry. I think Marist is in a much stronger
position.
GN:
Good. Ok Bob, thank you very much.
Marist College
Poughkeepsie, NY
Transcribed by Nancy Decker
For the Marist College Archives and Special Collections
Transcript - Robert Norman
Interviewee:
Robert Norman, Professor Emeritus at Marist College
Interviewer:
Gus Nolan
Interview Date:
November 29, 2001
Location:
Fontaine Building
Subject Headings:
Norman, Robert
Marist College—Faculty
Marist College. Communication Department
Summary:
Robert Norman talks about his early life careers and how it led him to
work at Marist College (Marian College). He also discusses his work in founding the
Radio major and how he helped get Lowell Thomas involved with the school and build a
lasting partnership. Robert also reflects on his work in creating the internship programs,
how much continued success it has brought the school, and where he sees it going.
Robert Norman
1
Gus Nolan:
Bob, I would like to ask you a few questions about your personal
life first, biographical questions. What is your full name Bob?
Robert Norman:
Robert II Coldrow, Tom Casey found out what that was, he
used to call me Coldrum; Robert Coldrow Norman, that’s my mothers maiden
name; Coldrow.
GN:
Were you named after another member of the family?
RN:
No, no.
GN:
Not the Robert?
RN:
No, not the Robert.
GN:
Where were you born and when?
RN:
I was born in Media Pennsylvania, that's outside Philadelphia, in nineteen
twenty-five.
GN:
Do you have any siblings, and what are their names?
RN:
My sister, was four years older than I, she passed away. As you know, my
mother passed away; you came to her funeral.
GN:
Yeah. Where did you grow up?
RN:
And my father.
GN:
What about your hometown, did you grow up where you were born or
did you move?
Robert Norman
2
RN:
We had to move somewhere else after my father died I was nine
years old the family moved to Olean, New York, where my maternal
grandmother lived, and we moved there. My mother was very sick and for
awhile, I lived in Pennsylvania and I was passed from one uncle or aunt to
another down there, and when she got well, I went back to her in Olean.
GN:
What about your early education as a young man, where did you go to
grade school?
RN:
Olean High School, graduated in nineteen forty-four. Went right into the
army, and I was in the army about three years; I served in the Philippines. I
got out of the army in nineteen, early forty-six and I came home. I worked as a
liquor salesman for a while.
GN:
Let's go back to the army, what were your roles in the army? Was there
any communications in those early years?
RN:
Well, I was in the infantry and also in ordinance, later on I was in
ordinance.
GN:
What about college, when you came out of the army?
RN:
When I came out of the army, I worked in radio in a small station in
Bradford, Pennsylvania. I had worked in the Olean station before I went
in the army. I was one of the people, who opened the station in Bradford,
Pennsylvania across the state line. My ideal was to become a radioman,
and my mother and father had both been teachers; they wanted me to be a
Robert Norton
3
teacher, but I was stuck on radio, I was really wedded to it. I worked in
that and television for a while and finally I got smart and came to Marist.
GN:
Well, before you get to Marist, you recently lost your wife, Camille when
were you married and where?
RN:
We were married in New Paltz, in nineteen fifty-four, fifty-five, and the
year after I got home.
GN:
And your children now, how many children do you have?
RN:
Judy, who is the oldest, Bobby and then the youngest is Jim.
GN:
Ok. I think Jim is the one I know the best; he's in the area here, what does
he do?
RN:
He's with the CIA; he was with Marist as the Alumni Director, but now
he's been with the CIA for a few years I guess.
GN:
This is for the historical record, the CIA is the
RN:
It’s The Culinary Institute of America, not the,
CIA.
(Laughter)
GN:
We just want to clarify that for our historical reasons. Since your
retirement, what has been your principle interests Bob?
RN:
Since I have retired, I haven't been too busy; I was sick for awhile and in
the hospital. I used to come over for some of the fun here. I didn't
do too much at all after I retired, I retire at seventy? I wasn't well. I was
going to go back to radio, because I had an opportunity to do that in New
York, but I didn't.
Robert Norman
4
GN:
Ok, let's get back to your coming to Marist. When did you first come to
the college?
RN:
I first came to the college in nineteen sixty, as a part timer.
GN:
And what were the circumstances under which you came?
RN:
They wanted somebody to teach radio. Radio was becoming big and they
wanted somebody to teach radio and I taught radio and I had a degree in
Journalism from St. Bonaventure, and a Masters degree in Communications from
Syracuse at the time. So, I came here and I taught that one course and then I was
asked if I would like to stay full time.
GN:
How did you break out to doing other things, like public relations and
announcing, and speed reading; I remember taking a speed reading course with
you.
RN:
Oh yes, I remember that Gus. Well, that's when I was working, I guess I
was working part time then. I was working for Dr. Schroeder, the night director.
GN:
Yes and his name slips my mind, Schroeder, Dr. John Schroeder. Do you
have any clear remembrances of your early days in the English department; how
big was it?
RN:
It wasn't big at all, there were Dr. Schroeder, myself, George Sommer the
Chairman, and then I think he hired, I don't remember the person he hired but I
think the person had a couple part timers in there. I think maybe the first one he
hired was…
Robert Norman
5
GN:
Maybe Bob Lewis?
RN:
No, no, before Bob Lewis, I think Milton came.
GN:
Oh, Milton, Dr. Teichman?
RN:
Yeah.
GN:
I'm just saying these names so that…. and then in terms of teaching in
those early years, was it principally the communication aspect of it although it
was not a communication major yet?
RN:
I taught English, now that you mention it.
GN:
You taught English.
RN:
I picked up another degree in English Literature from Manhattan, and I
really liked it. I didn't realize that I really liked English as much as I did until I
went to Manhattan and got to learn a little more as a student, and at the same time
I was teaching here full time.
GN:
Ok, at what point did the notion of developing an internship program
come to your mind and what's the genesis of that, can you remember that Bob?
RN:
I remember I thought for a long time that would be a possibility, but then I
thought that since a liberal arts school might not be interested in that, someone
like Dutchess, somebody likes that, and I did this course for Dutchess and it
worked out so well that when I got to Marist, I felt I would like to try it here, so I
designed a program and it worked out.
Robert Norman
6
GN:
Before the program, there were initial steps of people first beginning to do
them. If you had to say, this is one of the first placements that we had, where
would that be, in the internship program?
RN:
In the internship program, out of town, that would be CBS.
GN:
CBS.
RN:
The first one would be, a gal named Tracy, I can't remember her now, but
the second one became very successful and stayed on there, Gigi Birdis who
became very successful at CBS.
GN:
Right, her father was also a radioman.
RN:
He was a radio manager down in Peekskill.
GN:
Yes, I forget the name of the station now, one-o-one point seven.
RN:
WHUD
GN:
WHUD, right. There was a gradual development I think, of the program
from its inception to where it eventually became. As that happened, was there a
model or were you doing this pretty much off, creating it as you went? In other
words, was there any other college that you saw that had a significant program
that we were in any way imitating or?
RN:
No, we didn't imitate, there was another college that had it before we did,
but ran it a lot different, in a different way, and that was Emerson in Boston.
GN:
Emerson College, yes.
RN:
That's the only one I remember. Syracuse had it.
Robert Norman
7
GN:
Where there is advanced, do they allow students to take more than three
credits or six credits?
RN:
In Emerson, they did. I'm not sure, I don't remember about Syracuse,
whether they did or not. They taught first, they had some great people teaching,
built quite a reputation.
GN:
One of the big points that was developed in this program, was the ability
of students to actually take a semester or twelve credits and go in a distant
program, either in New York, or Philadelphia, or Boston. How did that happen?
Did you have to argue your way through or was there? I want you to tell me
about it.
RN:
Oh yeah, there were a lot of people that didn't like it, but I'll tell you one
thing, I'm not telling any tales out of school; Joe Belanger said oh on that’s
rinky-dink we don't want that, that's a disaster.
GN:
That's a disaster. That's not academic.
RN:
After he monitored some people doing internships in the foreign language
area, in France, and boy he thought it was a great idea.
GN:
I guess he came full circle where he wasn’t then he was back on board.
Could you tell us some of those interesting stories of people who are now
legendary in the alumni, I don't know, Doc Doherty maybe or somebody, or
Smokey McKiernan, did any of those fellows take internships or did it come later
on?
Robert Norman
8
RN:
They came a little later on.
G
N:
I'm going to give you a name, how about Mary Ryan? Fire Department.
What was the connection, going to the Fire Department would seem to have been
RN:
That was John Mulligan, and that started that. We had the internship
program and he was, at one time in charge of public relations and needed an
assistant. Mary was perfect, and she went down there and got the job, the
internship turned into a job.
GN:
I hate to say this publicly but I think she was the first and he has said
maybe the best that went to the fire department.
RN:
That could very well be, she was very well thought about.
GN:
Happily married now I think and living in Brooklyn, in the area of, the
beach area, Rocky Point or Stoney Hill or something like that, I forget the name
of it. ( Breezy Point)
RN:
She was a good friend of Gigi Birdis.
GN:
Right.
RN:
Gigi Birdis’s father was a programming director, so I knew him quite well,
but I hadn’t known her until she came to Marist. She went to work for Lou
Adler and became the tour director.
GN:
Speaking of these events, Lou Adler for-instance then the coming on of
the Lowell Thomas awards and then we used to give a communication award,
where was that done and how was that decided?
RN:
That was first done in another venue; it wasn't done in the glamorous hotel
Robert Norman
9
that we have it done in. It was done in a, I forget the name of it, it was on Third
Avenue, it was a good hotel.
GN:
The Warwick?
RN:
The Warwick.
GN:
Bob, that's on Sixth Avenue, across from the New York Hilton.
RN:
That's right. I used to look fondly at the New York Hilton and think boy, I
wish we could have the meeting there. We had the first meeting where we
presented awards and we had a guest speaker, that was when Dennis Murray
first came to town..
GN:
Yes.
RN:
Lou Adler was telling myself and Dennis Murray that we should look
upscale a little bit, get a better hotel. So we did. Eventually he became a member
of our Advisory Council and helped us a great deal.
GN:
That's right, I had forgotten all about the Advisory Council. Do you
remember the genesis of that? How did that happen?
RN:
Well, a lot of the people on the Advisory Council were people that I
worked with in radio or television and are people that I knew. We asked them,
could I set up a committee and we went after a few of them. We had pretty good
number there at one time, Advisor Council members, and when someone from
Marist would go out and make good, like for example, Gigi Birdis became a
member and did us a lot of good. She was of course speaking for Marist and have
an affinity to Marist and knew they would work extra hard. We got them.
Robert Norman
10
GN:
And Bill O'Rielly?
RN:
And Bill O'Reilly.
GN:
I remember him coming to one of those things and causing a stir.
RN:
He used to come up here for meetings.
GN:
That's the second one I was going to ask you. Wasn't there one year in the
city where you would meet and then one year here? They would come up the
night before and some would stay over night either before or after.
RN:
John Mulligan and friends.
GN:
Yes, I remember that indeed. Then the fact, one day we used to have a
conference all day, people were able to meet these pretty high-powered people
and discuss with them possibilities of professional placements.
RN:
I remember Sam Donaldson at one of our dinners, sat next to me and said,
"You know Bob, that guy is really good, I think we're going to hire him." They
hired him, Larry, when you get to be seventy-six, (Laughter) the names over the
years, this guy, his name is Larry; he went to work for them and got the job.
GN:
In fact he did an internship in London I think, didn't he?
RN:
Yes he did, that's right.
GN:
I can remember the credits; Jeptha Lanning would have the name.
RN:
He was a pretty good friend of Sam Donaldson.
GN:
Ok, there's a part of this that I think only you can appreciate, and
articulate some of the difficulties and how they were resolved. Going on
Robert Norman
11
internship program is one; there are not some legal problems and insurance
problems and remuneration problems, how did you handle those things?
RN:
Well, the financial problems were pretty well set in place because
they punched a punch machine and they had to be there a certain time and they
had to have so many credits to become that and they had a couple of tough
interviews before they were permitted to do that. Then they had another, and then
a few of them got out in the street and they were accompanied by union men out
on the street. They let them go for certain things, not on air, but get information
and bring it back. That's how they started to get good things and they were hired,
a lot of them were hired. Mike McCarthy, who's now the, well last time I heard,
he was vice president, I think he's president of the program.
GN:
Madison Square Garden?
RN:
That's right. He was one of those, he wanted to go to ABC, I know
because this is new. He went to Madison Square Garden, considered coming to
start building a new program (inaudible mumble).
GN:
How did you handle the problem of students who thought that they
shouldn't have to pay for credits for taking internship credits? Do you remember
some students balking at that?
RN:
Oh yeah, they balked at that.
GN:
And they said, "What is the college providing?"
RN:
Yeah, Yeah.
Robert Norman
12
GN:
And you told them that without the college
RN:
Without the college, you wouldn't be there.
GN:
They wouldn't be there, that's the simple fact of the matter.
RN:
Some of them were paid, we had two kinds, and we had a paid internship
and an unpaid internship. IBM, they had to pay them or they couldn't go.
GN:
Yes.
RN:
Certain companies did give them some of the sweetness and goodies, but
they couldn't pay them as an employee; because they weren't union. IBM wasn't
union, so they could do that. There were a lot of people that said, students would
come in and say, "Well if I don't get paid, why should I put my time in?" I said,
"That we’re outside looking in and the other guy that put in his time got the
job then you will understand why."
GN:
There's another swing on this Bob, wasn't there, that some students would
like the name of New York, but they were better off going to Kingston and
getting a hand on experience.
RN:
Some of that's true, that is true, cause some of them, they got more
hands on because of the lack of union restriction, they didn’t have any unions so
they could be on the air, they could do a lot of things that they couldn't do while
they were in New York.
GN:
Actually do the taping and do the camera work?
RN:
Yes, it's very prestigious to go to New York, but your not much value to
them. If a small station is looking for you to edit or to write a story or be in that
Robert Norman
13
capacity, they could do it in a small station and that's why we had the two-step.
The first step was a small station in their hometown and the second step was in
the summer and they could do whatever they wanted and the second step was the
paid internships at the high-end places like New York and Chicago and Buffalo
and places like that.
GN:
Philadelphia.
RN:
We had a great community, Philadelphia had the most stations, three
stations.
GN:
Yeah. What were some of the principle rewards that comes to you now,
thinking about your involvement there. As you reflect back on it, certainly there's
some satisfaction that all these kids.
RN:
You’re talking about internships?
GN:
Yes.
RN:
Well, I got a lot of letters thanking me for getting the internship for them
and from their parents and so forth, more than I expected. Sometimes you don't
get that as a teacher.
GN:
Yes, yes.
RN:
You don’t get the letters. It was kind of nice to see them do well.
GN:
There was more of a personal involvement?
RN:
Oh, yes, you went to see them. You were the only teacher that they saw
during the internship.
Robert Norman
14
GN:
And they were the only students.
RN:
They were the only students.
GN:
Something like
Tuesday with Morrie.
You’re the only teacher.
RN:
That's the only one. You’ve got to be on hand because there
were so many. For example, at NBC, I don't think I ever had less than fifteen
people at one site, and you would have CBS, ABC, NBC and also.
GN:
Madison Square Garden?
RN:
The great experiences they had in public relations, your field.
GN:
Oh yes, like with Mr. Daly?
RN:
Yes, Owen Daly hired quite a few of them out in California. He's got his
own agency.
GN:
Yes, yes. Even in New York, he took them in and was instrumental in
doing a number of things; and maybe you could talk about this Bob, Owen Daly
was probably one of the key people who were advisors to the college, not just the
internship program.
RN:
He took that very seriously.
GN:
On the creation of the famous award, the Lowell Thomas Award, I think
you were there in the beginning of that; how did that happen?
RN:
Well, we wanted to give an award and give it a name, and Lowell Thomas
had been close to the college; I had met him several times and he worked at CBS
when I was here, so there was a relationship with Lowell Thomas before he even
Robert Norman
15
spoke at the college. He knew Marist at the time, and he was very good to us.
GN:
Were you instrumental in getting him to come talk to that graduation class,
which was his last public appearance?
RN:
Yes, that's right. He was an amazing man.
GN:
Yes, at the tender age of about eighty-five.
RN:
He was a good golfer.
GN:
Yes, he was a good golfer; a good writer and we have a lot of the
paraphernalia of Lowell Thomas.
RN:
Good voice, what a voice he had. When I was a young kid in
Philadelphia, my father used to listen to Lowell Thomas all the time on the radio,
so I had to listen to him. He said, "Some day I hope you can be able to have as
good a voice as he does." I never did, but he had some voice, just a natural voice.
GN:
Yes.
RN:
So long until tomorrow. (Laughter)
GN:
I was waiting for you to say something like that, because Bob as you
know, you have been gifted also with a beautiful voice and we’ve capitalized on it
over the years here at the college having you do a number of commercials and
interviews and radio announcements; and thank God it's still there. And you can
still speak and maybe you will speak to these problems now; what do you think
about some changes that have taken place in the college? For instance the
coming of co-eds, was that a good thing, or…
Robert Norman
16
RN:
Well, the guy's didn't think it was a good thing when it started, the
male students, and they said, "Oh, there goes the curve, that's it." Well, I think it
was a great thing, I think it was a good thing to do. Just think what would have
happened if we hadn't admitted women.
GN:
Eventually you have to do it.
RN:
So many of our women have done very well too. They sort of balanced
the college, they gave balance, they gave a lot of class.
GN:
We thought they were going to enhance the code of dress, but actually I
don't think that really came to pass.
RN:
No, that didn't happen.
GN:
Refinement, somewhat, but the dress code is pretty much what it was.
Have there been romance relationships from the college that you are
aware of, students who married each other?
RN:
Jerry, the guy who was the editor of the Poughkeepsie Journal.
GN:
McNulty.
RN:
McNulty, he's working for the internship here, his wife?
GN:
Cathy Norton.
RN:
Cathy Norton, that's her name.
GN:
That's a good link that certainly we could put up here. Some good things
come out of it.
Robert Norman
17
RN:
There are a lot of others I can't think of off hand, but I
imagine that you could. I would like to keep the women involved more in the
college, alumnae, board or what ever. I think that means a great deal.
GN:
You have worked also now from the vantage point of looking at the
administration, were you here when Brother Paul was here?
RN:
Oh yeah.
GN:
So you would know Brother Paul?
RN:
Oh, yeah.
GN:
Ok, then he was followed by Dr. Foy, and then by Dr. Murray.
Let's just talk about…
RN:
Wait a minute; your not talking about Brother Paul Stokes are you?
GN:
Well, Brother Paul Stokes was here and then Brother Paul Ambrose was
the (president).
RN:
A little difference in personality.
GN:
A little different personality between them. Let's talk about Stokes, he
was the policeman on board, as it were, the Dean.
RN:
He loved to be called the Dean of Discipline and that's what he was.
GN:
Yes, and what images do you have of him as the Dean of Discipline?
Describe him physically; I forget what he looked like.
RN:
A little tiger, Jimmy Cagney type. He used to… I remember one thing,
he would be at the top of the stairs when I would come in, in the morning and he
Robert Norman
18
wouldn't say a word, but he would look at his watch. You knew you were a little
bit late. I want to tell you this, the greatest story I always tell that I thought was
so funny. You got to know Stokes to understand it though. John, he's on campus
now, he's still teaching. He was out in Chicago.
GN:
Scileppi?
RN:
He was out in Chicago studying decided to go over and visit Brother
Stokes at the school wherever it was; and he was on his way over there and he got
near the school, about half a block away, or a block away and he had a terrific
traffic jam and he was told to pull over. He got up to where the guy that told him
to pull over was, and there he was, Stokes, in his cassock, in the middle of the
street there, Madison Avenue whatever it was directing the traffic and keeping it
moving. John says, "Brother Stokes, Brother Stokes, how are you, I haven't seen
you in a long time, how have you been?" "Keep on going John, keep on going,
keep the traffic moving.” Here the guy hasn't seen him in some time and he was
so happy to see him, “keep it going.”
GN:
Work before pleasure.
RN:
Oh, he was something else.
GN:
Right.
RN:
And John Ambrose, what a delightful man, very quiet.
GN:
Paul Ambrose.
Robert Norman
19
RN:
Paul Ambrose, I'm sorry. He didn't work in that position long while I was
here, but he was a very nice man.
GN:
Right, and then comes Dr. Foy.
RN:
Hard worker.
GN:
What were your experiences?
RN:
Hard worker, he never sat still or stood still and he was a very nice man.
He was a soft-spoken man, but don't let it fool you. (Laughter) He was very,
very, good, he was in school for many years, and if it hadn't been for Foy, I don't
know what they would have done at that time.
GN:
Right, now the college was really a very small and unpretentious place by
standards of other colleges, what kept you here? Could you see the promise of
this developing to what it is today?
RN:
Yeah, I think so. Of course it wasn't Marist when I came here.
GN:
It was Marian.
RN:
It was Marian, Marian College, and I stayed here a long time. I didn't
think I was going to be here that long because I had a job offer in Philadelphia at
WIP Philadelphia and I was going to go back down to my old hometown. I used
to live in Philadelphia. I was going back to Philadelphia, but my wife, you know,
her family is from up here and they had property and they kind of settled here and
we were settled in the house near the college and so I called up my friend and
said, "Thanks a lot, but no thanks." The guy I was going to work for ironically
Robert Norman
20
enough, was a classmate of mine at Bonaventure. The president of the college he
wanted someone to do sports, but what kept me away from that was, it was good,
it was Phillies; I think they did Princeton, football, baseball and basketball. When
I was younger, that would have been heaven. Camille said, "Do you know how
much you would be away from home with a schedule like that?" So I didn't take
it.
GN:
A wise move I think.
RN:
Oh, yeah. She was a wise person said oh come on you’re no kid any
more.
GN:
But you did do some broadcasting here, I remember some football games
played out there on Leonidoff Field in the evening, and there were lights they
said, not too bright. There was a fog, and I remember you’re trying to call a game
one night.
RN:
That's, your right; that was in nineteen, but it wasn't here it wasn't at
Leonidoff, it was down in Stizel Field.
GN:
Oh, in Poughkeepsie, oh yeah right.
RN:
I never saw anything that bad, I mean, they had a fog so bad, I had to have
a kid down in the field, not only spotters in the booth but a kid on the field to tell
me whether or not the guy caught the ball. Throw it, and that's all I could see, I
had one guy down there covering that guy and then the passer. (Laughter)
GN:
You won't believe this, but I heard that game in Esopus with Linus Foy.
Robert Norman
21
We were in Esopus that Saturday, and we were saying how incredible; I mean
even that we were on air was a big move that Marist College football was being
announced in the Hudson Valley.
RN:
Well you know the owners the other owners of the station, there were
three of us, the other two owners, they hated sports, wanted nothing to do with
sports and I had a heck of a time getting them to take the Marist games.
GN:
The other point I want to make about Linus Foy is the early development
that went on; he and Brother Nilus did some construction work, do you
remember that phase?
RN:
Oh absolutely, yeah we were building; when I got here full time, they
were building Donnelly and you were part of the work force. They were building
Donnelly and they would take them out of class and you could not run you
classroom. You would hear somebody say, "Hey, Nolan" …”Lanning.”
GN:
"Unload the blocks."
RN:
Yeah, and they would go out.
GN:
Happily. (Laughter)
RN:
Yeah, and I can remember on top, they seemed to hammer a little bit
harder over my classroom. You tell people that and they don't believe it.
GN:
That was good times.
RN:
What Linus used to do, I mean the college president?
GN:
I just saw that picture here, the Brothers that built their college, and it’s in
one of the offices and in Time Magazine, you have that picture there with the
Robert Norman
22
shovel.
RN:
Yes, with the shovel.
GN:
Ok, let's move into more current times. From Dr. Foy to Dr. Murray;
how would you describe the transition in terms of leadership and interaction with
the faculty; would you say something about that?
RN:
I'd say they both had some things in common. They got on pretty good
with the faculty. People didn't have too much trouble with Linus, he did not
have too much trouble with the faculty. They had entirely different styles,
completely different. Linus was quiet, a quiet steady worker.
GN:
And poorer, we had no money in those days.
RN:
We had no money, and the other fellow, Murray was a go-getter. I
remember one story was it Bill Murphy, no, it was Linus Foy, I had a lot of
trouble getting him to go out and speak in the beginning. I handled public
relations here to talk to someone, people in the community I would have been
there for example at the Kiwanis Club, First Friday Club and all that stuff. Why
don't you come out, meet with some people; he was pretty busy and I know he
was unhappy doing that, until I got Bill Martin, who by the way the built the Boat
House. His wife used to say, "That red M stands for Martin, not Marist."
(Laughter) He didn't like to go out and speak too much; as a matter of fact I
think he was kind of a shy guy.
GN:
Yes.
RN:
He came out of all of that. After you got to know him, he was pretty
Robert Norman
23
impressive.
GN:
Yes.
RN:
But he would come on as this shy person.
GN:
Yes Dr. Murray
RN:
Dr. Murray doesn't come off as a shy person.
GN:
No.
RN:
He moves right ahead.
GN:
A little more festive, fund-raising, PR.
RN:
Tom Casey told me one time, he said, "You know, we went out to talk
to a guy in the west he and I think John Ritschdorff, and Tom went out to speak
to this guy, and we came back and Tom Casey said, “He’s a time bomb”
"What do you mean?" "He talks a lot." Makes a lot of promises, but you will like
him because he's big on sports. I mean they were different types.
GN:
Yes.
RN:
One was aggressive, outwardly aggressive; one was aggressive, but
quietly aggressive; I don't know which is more advantageous. (Laughter)
GN:
We could turn the coin over, every time there's more positive
RN:
They were very successful, I mean both of them were very successful, but
at different times. It's a good thing you had Linus at that time and Murray at this
time rather than reversed.
GN:
Yes.
Robert Norman
24
RN:
I don't think they could have done it.
GN:
What do you think is Dr. Murray's major accomplishments here? Is it
the building, the Library itself for instance, the campus or the growth of the
college numerically. Where do you think his greatest input has come?
RN:
I think that he was able to develop a lot of sources for income. Somebody
else would go out and line them up.
GN:
Plant a seed? As it were.
RN:
Yes, and yet he would go out, John Lahey did the same thing. He would
tell him, you and so and so, you ought to go out and see him. Well ok, we would
have lunch and then that would be the end of me, I wouldn't want them anywhere.
They would take over, and Linus was very good at that and John was excellent.
GN:
I'm trying to think of another John.
RN:
And yet they are rivals now.
GN:
Yes, right, Lahey and Murray, you’re talking about. One, the president of
Quinnipiac, and the other the president of Marist; both in the same area really.
You’ve got the polls, public opinion polls, from one college or the other and…
RN:
I call him, John, you’re a copycat; you took that right away from Marist.
GN:
Yes, imitation the best form of honor. What would you see as the future
of Marist, Bob? Do you think that the role has been played and the development,
in terms of the technology and the programs that we have now are more solidly
based and this is where the college will be, or like ten years ago, we never knew
Robert Norman
25
we would be here. Can you take a shot into the future and say, "I think the
college will be going more toward distance education or would it be more of a
we’re going to build and expand ever more for boarders to come on board? How
do you feel now about that?
RN:
Well of course they would have the problem of space if they did that too
much, because I don't think they have too much more space. I think that probably
the accent will be on technology. Wedding that with traditional liberal arts. I
think technology is very important; I hate to admit that because I’m the worse
technical person in the world. I used to have fits every time I had to go out and
hook up lines for broadcasting. It's lucky thing it got on the air. I think that is
going to be a…
GN:
It's one of the assets that we have now in place and we're going to enhance
it.
RN:
Well with this article in the paper one day about Marist leading
technical areas in terms of studies.
GN:
Right. Let me end this way Bob, and say we've done a number of
historical things here; your views of different things is there something you would
like to add to this? If a new faculty member were to come and ask you, what
would you say to him or, would you encourage students to come here? What's
you’re feeling about this?
RN:
I think the area is great, it couldn't be better. I have a lot of faith in my
Alma mater, as much as you have in yours, St. Bonaventure. The St. Bonaventure
Robert Norman
26
of the future will never be a Marist. They are tucked up there, small town; here
you've got sort of an area of small towns. It goes pretty much that there is a lot of
potential here for getting to the public and I think to use that potential and I think
that… I remember one time at Marist when people were afraid of getting
something in the paper.
GN:
Yes.
RN:
Because they were afraid it would be negative. I remember that because I
used to send readers, all they said was cookie cutter reads, now everything is
fancy and if you feel good don't worry. I think Marist is in a much stronger
position.
GN:
Good. Ok Bob, thank you very much.
