Joseph Kirtland

Marist College
Poughkeepsie, NY
Transcribed by William Dougherty
For the Marist College Archives and Special Collections



Transcript – Joseph Kirtland
Interviewee:
Joseph Kirtland
Interviewer:
Gus Nolan and Jan Stivers
Interview Date:
4 November
Location:
[Unknown]
Subject Headings:
Kirtland, Joseph


Marist College (Poughkeepsie N.Y.)


Marist College Faculty


Marist College Mathematics Department


Marist College History
Summary:
Joe Kirtland talks about his time growing up in western New York, attending
boarding schools, and going to Syracuse for his undergraduate. He speaks on what led him to
Marist as a career and his views on how the college has changed since he first came. He focusses
on comparing the Presidency of Desmond Murray to Kevin Weinmann and how the college has
changed after the COVID-19 pandemic.



Joseph Kirkland 1

Joe Kirtland (00:00:00):
Honor to be here with both of you.
Gus Nolan (00:00:01):
Good morning. Today is Friday, November 4th, and we have the privilege of interviewing Joe
Kirtland, Dr. Kirtland, who's been with Marist I believe since 96’?
Joe Kirtland (00:00:22):
92’.
Gus Nolan (00:00:22):
92’, We didn't count the first four years because he was really learning his way around here. So
as far as 96’ down, Joe, this comes in four parts. One early life, and then high school, college,
before Marist, and then Marist and then post Marist or looking back at Marist and making some
observations. And we share the questions back and forth. There's no specific automatic set of
questions except some basic things like, I'm going to start by saying, Joe, tell us a few things
about your early life. Where were you born and growing up, and the family and grade school,
things of that sort. Talk freely.
Joe Kirtland (00:01:15):
So, I was born in Auburn, New York, which is in Central New York, right near Cayuga Lake or
right on Cayuga Lake, so, or the Finger Lakes region of New York. My father was a professor at
Wells College, which was in Aurora, which was about 30 minutes or so away from Auburn.
Central New York is a very gorgeous part of the state. It's very rural. It's been changing a lot
since I've been there, a lot of farming when I was younger, but that has since gone, now Amish
people are moving in more, but that's maybe a little off topic. So, I was there until I went to
boarding school, at a place called Northfield Mount Hermon in Massachusetts. But that wasn't
until I was 15, 14. Um, so growing.
Jan Stivers (00:02:03):
Tell us why boarding school.
Joe Kirtland (00:02:05):
My father had, sorry, long story, my father's father had been a big heavyweight at Phillips Exeter
Academy in New Hampshire. And it started, the summer program was the, there's a Kirtland
Latin Society named after my grandfather. So, my father had always thought that boarding
school would be good for us kids. They also didn't like the local school system all that much,
which I thought was fairly good. But in retrospect, not so much. Just because there were, you
know, there was a few academic kids, cause all the college professors kids went to Southern
Cayuga, which Southern Cayuga Central School is the name of the school district, which is kind
of interesting. It was actually concatenated school district because two other school districts
close by had closed down because of, you know…
Jan Stivers (00:02:53):


Joseph Kirkland 2

Lowering enrollment.
Joe Kirtland (00:02:54):
Lowing enrollment. I mean you can still see, sorry, tangential here. You can still see ghost
towns. I mean you can see ghost towns in central New York. I mean, it's just the farming and
manufacturing left. And so, these places closed. But anyway, so he felt that, you know, he had
that history of going to boarding school cause he went and so he thought, we should go.
Gus Nolan (00:03:14):
What about the first four years or eight years in school? Did you go to grade school?
Joe Kirtland (00:03:18):
I went to grade school. I went to elementary school, um, and Emily Holland Elementary School.
And that was this very, you know, very small, not a one room schoolhouse, but a very small
place. It was a very typical elementary school. Again, very rural setting.
Gus Nolan (00:03:36):
How many students in the class?
Joe Kirtland (00:03:37):
I'm sorry?
Gus Nolan (00:03:38):
How many students in the class?
Joe Kirtland (00:03:40):
You're asking me a hard question. I don't remember. I don't remember. There was maybe 90
students, I would say. I mean, I'm thinking there were three kindergarten classes, three first-grade
classes, so that's what I'm basing that on. But I could be completely wrong, but it wasn't big like
a, you know, city school. I remember, sorry, you're bringing back all kinds of memories. I
remember actually having to do air raid drills. Where you had to go into the hallway, get away
from the windows, and the older kids stood over the younger kids. And so, you know, I made
good friends. I was a very good athlete. I played little league baseball. It was fun growing up on
the lake. I have to admit, that was the fun part. Cause in the summertime you just go run in the
lake. I don't know if this should be edited out, but there's no better cure for a hangover than
actually going for a swim in the lake in the morning. Which I did a lot when I was younger.
Gus Nolan (00:04:38):
Are you an only child?
Joe Kirtland (00:04:40):
No, I'm the oldest of, well, depending on how you measure it, I'm the oldest of three, or the
second oldest of four. My father was married before he married my mother, so he had one child


Joseph Kirkland 3

through that marriage, and then he married my mother, and there were three of us. And I was the
oldest in that group of three. But as for my father's children, I was the second oldest.
Gus Nolan (00:05:05):
Through grade school and, well, high school will come a little later. In school academics, you
did well.
Joe Kirtland (00:05:17):
I did well. I was not always the most motivated student. I remember once getting an assignment
back where I'd done the first page of the assignment, but left everything else blank, which was
perhaps not my best move. I was typically a good student. I was better at mathematics. Writing
and history was a little harder for me. I struggled with that a little bit, actually, all the way
through college. But college really whipped me into shape. But as a general rule, I always
enjoyed academics. I wasn't always necessarily that great at it, but I always enjoyed it. And I
liked working hard at it.
Gus Nolan (00:05:57):
Did your father have a big influence on your math development and school?
Joe Kirtland (00:06:02):
Not really. He was an ancient Greek and Latin professor; he was a classics professor. So, I don't
know what it was. I just enjoyed mathematics.
Gus Nolan (00:06:14):
Okay. Move on to the boarding school.
Joe Kirtland (00:06:20):
Right. So, in 98’, sorry, 78’, I started my sophomore year at Northfield Mount Hermon, which is
a boarding school near Greenfield, Massachusetts. It's essentially right near northern, or sorry it's
western Massachusetts. It's right near where the border between Vermont and New Hampshire is.
So that's to give you an idea of where it is. I struggled there a little bit at the beginning, because a
lot of the boarding school students came from much more wealthier families. And my father was
just a college professor, and my mom didn't work. So, his uncle, I'm sorry, my uncle, his brother
paid for boarding school. So that was a real adjustment for me because it was all of a sudden I
was thrown in with a lot of people that had a lot more means than I did. I'd never seen drugs
before, marijuana, things like that, until I got to boarding school.
Joe Kirtland (00:07:15):
So that was a real shock for me. The other thing was, is that kids had been mean to me in
elementary school, but the nice part about it was that kids were not mean to me in boarding
school, which I really liked about that. I had gotten picked on a lot in high school, before I went
there, and in middle school, I'm not sure if it was because I was a "fac-brat", which is what they
often called us, you know, the faculty kids, um, or what. But I really enjoyed boarding school for
that reason. And I kind of, I think I kind of blossomed there. I really came into my own. I really


Joseph Kirkland 4

started to really enjoy mathematics as a discipline. And I was very good at it. But the challenge
was also much more challenging than high school. And I think the challenge really helped. And
so that's where I really learned that I liked the academic or really, really liked the academic
experience and the harder the experience, the harder I tried. So, it really challenged me, and that
kind of brought me up. Not that I wasn't necessarily challenged, before, but not to that extent.
And I wasn't as motivated. It was a more comfortable environment, you know, in high school in
central New York, I was more interested in not getting beat up. But in boarding school I felt free
of that. And I joined the swim team.
Gus Nolan (00:08:32):
Okay. Alright. Good. I'm glad you just mentioned that last one because I'm a little surprised by
the concept that I've gotten that I wouldn't think you were a little weakling. I mean, call me
wrong., I wouldn't want to have to tussle with you about anything, you know, so maybe two or
three would pick on you, but I don't think one would pick on you, you know,
Jan Stivers (00:08:54):
It's probably a culture thing, right?
Joe Kirtland (00:08:55):
Yeah, it was definitely a cultural thing. I was definitely different. I was definitely an outsider. I
was definitely not very assertive and stuff, that came later. I was not very assertive. And I didn't
fight back. So that was part of it.
Gus Nolan (00:09:14):
Outside of academics, what else did you do? Did you have hobbies? Did you travel? Did you
work? Any Summer Jobs?
Joe Kirtland (00:09:21):
Yeah, no, that's a great question. Well, a couple things. Number one, my mom is German. So,
my mom was born in Berlin in 1932. And her family now lives in the Munich area. So, I've been
to Germany a lot. I was in Germany in 1972 during the 72’ Olympic Games. Which, uh,
something interesting happened then. My father one year in sabbatical, we were in Europe for a
year. I lived in basically Munich for about four months, and then in Greece on the island of Evia
for about eight months. So that was interesting. I was homeschooled by my parents, which I
never want to go through that again. But anyway, that's a different story, sitting with your dad all
day is not fun. So, I've done some traveling. My mother's still alive so I do go back, and her
brother and my cousins are still there. So, I do go back occasionally. In terms of hobbies, when I
was younger, I was a big stamp collector. I collected stamps, and I've kind of gotten away from
that. I've gotten more into other things now. I was a swimmer at Northfield, Mount Hermann at
the boarding school. They had water polo, so I played water polo, which was a new sport to me,
and I really loved it. And I actually started building my physique then. cause our coach made us
do weightlift and stuff. So that's when I started getting tougher. I liked hiking, but I didn't do it as
much. And that kind of became more of a lifelong passion. Cindy and I are very big hikers
nowadays. I had been introduced to running, Northfield, Mount Hermon had a pie race every
fall semester. And there was a certain course, and if you ran it in a certain speed, you got a pie.


Joseph Kirkland 5

And Frank Shorter, who is a famous runner. He went there and he came back one year. So, I can
say that I ran against Frank Shorter, even though I only saw his backside for a couple seconds,
and then he was gone. So that's where I kind of developed those things. My mom's father was an
artist. He was a set designer for the Munich Opera House. And so, my mom was kind of
somewhat of an artist. And so, I was always kind of interested in not necessarily painting but
drawing and things like that. Which I've done a little bit more later on in life. I've been exploring
that a little bit more lately. But back then I didn't do much about it. And I also, I liked poetry, I
enjoyed poetry. Actually, one of the things, fun things I actually did do with my father was he
had us write limericks when we were kids, that kind of got me interested. And so, he was really
good about that, and sort of feeding those creative parts.
Gus Nolan (00:12:05):
Do you read much?
Joe Kirtland (00:12:07):
Oh, I read tons. I'm usually reading two books at a time. Typically, one book I'm rereading that
I've read before, like I'm a big Lord of the Rings fan, so I read those books once every five or six
years anyway. But yeah, I read a lot. Not as much poetry anymore, even though I am in a poetry
group where we meet once or twice a month. I mean, once every month or two to read. I play
golf now too.
Gus Nolan (00:12:31):
You do?
Joe Kirtland (00:12:32):
Yeah.
Gus Nolan (00:12:34):
Hole in one yet?
Joe Kirtland (00:12:35):
No, no. It's still eluding me. I have shot a 30 something at Dinsmore on the Front nine. Proud of
that. Yeah.
Gus Nolan (00:12:47):
On a nine or 18?
Joe Kirtland (00:12:48):
No. Yeah. well, the front nine. Well, you've played there. I know. The Front nine at Densmore is
very short, so. Yeah. Um, so I developed, I mean, I started liking golf in boarding school, but I
didn't really play it much until after my kids were grown up. Cause it was tough to play a lot.
But, I'm trying to think what other hobbies I had. I liked swimming. When I was in, I didn't swim
in college, which is my one regret, but I did swim master swimming when I was in graduate
school, and that was fun. I'm trying to think what else.


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Joe Kirtland (00:13:22):
It doesn't need to be anything else. This is very broad, very, very, elected.
Joe Kirtland (00:13:29):
Okay, good. Thank you.
Gus Nolan (00:13:30):
We'll expect you.
Joe Kirtland (00:13:31):
I was worried. I was worried.
Gus Nolan (00:13:33):
Yeah.
Joe Kirtland (00:13:34):
If one, the only one last thing I'll say, and I'm not quite sure if it qualifies as a hobby or not, but
in boarding school I was introduced to the band, the Grateful Dead. And I really, really like
them. And so, and my wife is also a big fan, so I don't know if it's a hobby, but I, my wife and I,
when we make Dead, went to as many shows as we could. And I went to as many shows. And
this year, there actually is their final show. I mean, not, not a lot of the original members are
alive still, but so we're going to a whole bunch this next spring, next fall, next spring and
summer. But, um, I don't know if you qualify that as a hobby, but I kind of really got into music
in boarding school. Cause again, they all had really fancy stereos. And so, I wanted one. And my
parents were always cursing me for asking for expensive stuff for Christmas and stuff for my
birthday. But yeah.
Gus Nolan (00:14:19):
Okay. Jan will take a few words and then I'll come back.
Jan Stivers (00:14:24):
Well, after boarding school, you went to Syracuse University. So, that is a place as radically
different from Marist.
Joe Kirtland (00:14:33):
Oh, yeah.
Jan Stivers (00:14:34):
As you can imagine. So, what was it that, is it okay to go there? Or do you want to go? Okay.
What was it that drew you to Marist?
Joe Kirtland (00:14:41):


Joseph Kirkland 7

Well, that's interesting, and I talked about that with, actually, my college roommates a lot. It was,
Syracuse was a really big place, and it was very easy to get lost. And I was fortunate enough to
make a friendship with five other individuals. And we basically lived together for three years.
We kind of all met freshman year, and then we lived in the same dorm sophomore year, and then
moved off campus together for junior and senior year. And I was fortunate to have that support
system because I think I might've gotten lost there. And one of my regrets, and we talk about
this almost every time we get together, was that we didn't really take advantage of, Syracuse was
a huge place. And we didn't really take advantage of all the things that were there. We never
went to the gym. We maybe went to a talk. Timothy Leary came and spoke. So of course, we
went and saw him. We didn't join any clubs. I hardly ever went to office hours, even though
they're minimal compared to Marist, maybe one or two hours a week for the professors. And I
never really took advantage of all of the opportunities that were available at Marist. So, when I
went to boarding school, I went to, I mean, so when I went to graduate school, which is
University of New Hampshire. Same kind of place, very big, very, you know, and I realized that,
you know, I saw a lot of students slipping through the cracks. So, when I was coming out, I said,
you know, that's the kind of place I want to be. I want to be in a smaller school where there's
more attention on the students, where, you know, there's more support for the students. And so
that's why I chose, well, Marist wasn't the only school I applied to mind you At that time, my
parents were still, my father was still alive. My parents were still living in New York, in Central
New York. And Cindy's parents, sorry, mother was long dead, father was living in Rhode Island.
So, New York State, you know, Eastern New York, Western New England, sort of northern New
Jersey was kind of a nice place, so I just applied to a lot of schools in those areas. A lot of, well
anyway, was looking for jobs looking for people smaller schools in that area where the focus was
on the students. And where I felt that I could do, give the student an improved experience in
comparison to what I had.
Gus Nolan (00:16:55):
Just to interject your question. Why did you want to teach? You could make a lot more money in
business.
Joe Kirtland (00:17:02):
Yeah. I mean maybe it was because my dad, you know, my dad was a college professor, and so I,
you know, wanted to follow in the family footsteps, or in the family business. Yeah, I often
thought about that. My mom tried to get me to be a computer science major at Syracuse. And at
that point, there were still, this is another reason. At that point, they were still doing the weeding
out part, instead of priming the pump, they were doing the weeding out course. In other words,
the freshman year course is really hard to get rid of all the people that couldn't hack it. Um, that
I, I even at big schools, I believe that has now changed. But they can't afford to do that cause
they're a huge school. They got tons of students. We, at Marist, we can't be doing that. So we
were more about priming the pump and doing anything we can to get the students in instead of
kind of reading, you know, taking one check. So, I struck out in computer science, even though
I'm a great programmer in my opinion. I'm not as great as our professors. I lost my train of
thought. So, then I went into mathematics, and I didn't really want to get outta school yet. I really
kind of liked it. So, kind of graduate school was the easiest thing next. And then when I was in
graduate school, I was a TA, and I really enjoyed the teaching aspect of it. And I really enjoyed
all of the, all the activities of academic. And so, at that point, I decided I wanted to be an


Joseph Kirkland 8

academic. And I knew I was not going to make a lot of money, but I really enjoyed the other
aspects of it. So
Jan Stivers (00:18:22):
You just said that you enjoyed all the aspects of being an academic.
Joe Kirtland (00:18:27):
Almost all, perhaps I should've said that.
Jan Stivers (00:18:29):
So, I want to ask you about a generalization. And that is that faculty who excel, as you have
done, typically excel either as scholars, researchers, or as teachers. And of course, you defy that
generalization. You have received the college's highest award for scholarship and for teaching.
And you've got the award that matters most, which is the vote from the kids as faculty of the year
over, over and over again.
Joe Kirtland (00:19:00):
Make me cry on that one.
Gus Nolan (00:19:01):
Cost a lot of money, though.
Jan Stivers (00:19:02):
I want to know how you manage that. And you had two children?
Joe Kirtland (00:19:07):
Yeah, I had two children and a wife who worked. Yeah. There were some, there was some tough
years there when I was getting the kids on the bus and home two days an afternoon to get the
kids off the bus. Cause Cindy, cause Cindy had to be, could never get the kids on the bus. And a
lot of days when I brought the kids into work, which I, which kind of interesting story, side note,
I found out later, Betsy, my daughter used to fake being sick because when I brought the kids to
school, they'd sit in my office and goof around or watch a DVD on the computer. And then we
go to the dining hall for lunch. And she loved that because it's like a burger and pizza and fries
every day for lunch.
Jan Stivers (00:19:38):
As much ice cream as she wants.
Joe Kirtland (00:19:39):
Right, she thought that was the best.
Jan Stivers (00:19:41):
My kids too.


Joseph Kirkland 9

Joe Kirtland (00:19:46):
I think, yeah. I think that, how do I say this? It's not necessarily motivation cause a lot of other; a
lot of people are motivated. I've seen a lot of, I've seen a lot of motivated people. I think it's the
ability to compartmentalize and able to take whatever time's allotted to you and use the most, or
get the best effect, get the most out of that time. And I think I've been sort of successful at that.
I've also been kind of lucky. I mean, when I first got out of graduate school, I started, I wrote a
few papers with a faculty member Cindy Binghampton. And that kind of helped kickstart some
things for me. I think the other thing that helped was that, you know, my wife, being Cindy being
a public-school teacher, she works until the end of June. So, my kids were in school until the end
of June. So, the end of May, early June. I kind of had to, you know, six weeks of kind of
freedom. And then I could do all kinds of teaching development stuff then or research then. So, I
think using my time wisely might've been, might've been the best strategy. I'm definitely not the
smartest person on campus. I'm definitely not the smartest person in my department. I think it's
just a matter of dedication, a matter of sort of, um, stick-to-itiveness, a matter of motivation, I
think that defines everybody that excels in their field. And I, the last thing I'll say is that with
regards to the teaching part, I think that the mistake that a lot of people make is that all good
teaching is in the classroom. And I don't believe that. Yes, I think you've got to be good in the
classroom and you've got to keep the students engaged and you've got to find ways to motivate
them. I agree with all that. But how you interact with them outside of the classroom, what
resources you provide, how you set up certain, the homework and things like that I think that's
just as important. And I think that some people don't always worry about that aspect as much.
Gus Nolan (00:21:48):
I'd like to go back to an earlier part. Did you know anybody at Marist before you came here?
Joe Kirtland (00:21:55):
No.
Gus Nolan (00:21:55):
Were you out of the blue when you came? Who did you see and how, how did you get in?
Joe Kirtland (00:22:03):
I didn't know anybody at Marist. I did know Wes Ostertag, who I'd met at a conference when I
was in graduate school. And he taught at Dutchess Community College. So, I did know one
person in the area, but I didn't know anybody at Marist. So, when I, I just applied to a lot of
different schools. And then Marist asked me for an interview, and I had just gotten rejected from
University of Scranton, which I'm happy that I did in retrospect. I'd made their final cut, but I
didn't get the job. So, I was fresh off of that. And so, I got the interview here and I guess it went
well. I, it was Lynne Doty was the chair of the committee. Rich McGovern was on it. And it
might've been Kevin Carolan. Was also on it. So that was the first, my first interview. I
remember Rich McGovern asking me if I wind surfed. And I thought that was a little weird
question because he was windsurfing at the time. Um, so that was who I met. And then what
really, the other thing, and, and I have to say this was that, you know, I had been offered a job at
Misericordia, which is now Misericordia University, which is in coal country in Pennsylvania.
And I had turned them down because I knew Cindy would never, could never live there. And so


Joseph Kirkland 10

when I came here and I had a great interview and I liked it, Rich McGovern, I don't know if Rich
did this on purpose, but he said, yeah, you should go home, drive North on Route nine till you
get to Rhinebeck and then take a ride on 308 to get out to the Taconic and go home. Cause I was
in New Hampshire And that was a brilliant move because I drove through Rhinebeck and I said,
okay, this is a place we could be. And so, yeah, I don't know if Rich had that, if, if Rich was, if
Rich was. And then since we've been living here, we found about all we've fallen in love with all
the other great aspects of the Hudson Valley. But that really kind of, you know, having been
from New England and Portsmouth, which Portsmouth, New Hampshire is one of my favorite
cities.
Gus Nolan (00:23:52):
Where do you live?
Joe Kirtland (00:23:53):
We live in Rhinebeck. I mean, Red Hook, Red Hook, what I should say. We live in Red Hook
just north of there. Rhinebeck's a little bit pricey.
Gus Nolan (00:23:59):
Oh, oh. I've been there. I've visited alright. Let's, let's come to Marist. What have you been
experiences here? What would you say were the most uplifting kind of experiences that you had?
Were the students good students?
Joe Kirtland (00:24:24):
Yes and no. Let me answer the first question cause the first thing that comes to mind is the
community. I've never been, I'm talking to other people, I don't know of a place that has a sense
of community that Marist does. And I think that's one of the things that's kind of going away as
we get bigger. It used to be we all knew everybody. You know? I knew you. I knew Jan. I knew
everybody in all the different departments. But now that is cause we're getting bigger. We even
used to have the faculty dining room, if you remember correctly, which I remember seeing you
there a couple times. And that was a great way to get together. And that's how I met Steve
Killian, who's no longer here, and we did a cluster together.
Joe Kirtland (00:25:03):
And we wrote an NSF grant together, which [inaudible] ended up, cause he left, ended up being
the English person on that. But it was just, it was a great sense of community and I really, really
enjoyed that. And that still exists today in smaller pieces, like in the department and the, and in
the school level. But overall, and as a college, it's less, which has been the one I find, but I don't,
I think Marist getting bigger is a good thing. I don't mean it's a bad thing, but we, you lose a little
bit.
Gus Nolan (00:25:32):
You can't have them both.
Joe Kirtland (00:25:33):


Joseph Kirkland 11

Right. And I think there's kind of ways that we could do to get things back, but anyway. The
students, the students were a mixed bag when I was first here. I thought the students were pretty
weak. And of course, you always think that when you come from a university, you know, big
university and you come to a small school. But with that said, we've always had a consistently
good group of students. We've always had a consistent group of students that kind of rise to the
top and, perform really well. I think it kind of goes up and down. I think in the mid aughts and
early teens, Marist was attracting really good students and we had really great students. I think, I
hope no one else is taping this. I think lately we've been admitting weaker students. But that's
just my impression in the classroom. I don't know if that's true or not. I don't know if that's just
Covid, Covid hangover or not, but when I first got here, the students I thought were on a lower
level, then they kind of went up in the mid aughts and early teens. And I think it's starting to
come back down again. And I think it's because I don't know why, but we're definitely admitting
a huger chunk of the people that applied than we did during that time period. And that might be
what, what the cause of…
Gus Nolan (00:26:48):
Well, the president's point about diversity, I think has something to do with, perhaps the
president.
Joe Kirtland (00:26:54):
Well, the pool is also shrinking in the northeast. If you want to bring in the same number of kids.
Gus Nolan (00:27:00):
The population. Yeah, negative, what are some of the disappointments?
Joe Kirtland (00:27:09):
Wow. That's, that's a tough question.
Gus Nolan (00:27:13):
Good.
Joe Kirtland (00:27:15):
I think that, well, the campus is a little too corporate in my opinion. And now that may have been
due to our long-term president. But you didn't see kind of like the rabble that you saw at other
campuses. You know, postings everywhere, you know, lots of benches outside, which I found
out that later on that Dennis never liked benches outside, which I find weird. But the campus just
seems a little bit too clean, you know, a little bit too, pristine for my liking. I think we're doing a
better job with getting diverse students. But, you know, we got a lot of white male baseball cap
wearing guys. And we have a lot of, you know, belly shirt, wearing females. I think the diversity
is, we could definitely address that a lot. I don't know how we do that, but I think that's been a
little bit of a disappointment. Should have given you some questions ahead of time, could've
helped out. Those are the big, those are the two that come to mind.
Gus Nolan (00:28:25):


Joseph Kirkland 12

Yeah. You're hitting the nail pretty much on the head on those issues.
Jan Stivers (00:28:31):
I have a way of maybe surfacing some others. And that is to ask you about faculty leadership.
So, you've had a lot of, you've had a lot of service. A lot of service experiences and faculty
leadership being a big part of that. So, what did you learn through faculty leadership?
Joe Kirtland (00:28:49):
Yeah. That's a, that's a great question. I'll start by saying this cause I'm glad you brought that up.
I have so many faculty members who complain about their students, how they show up late, how
they sit in the back of the classroom, how they're on their phones the whole time. Go to any
faculty meeting. That's what happens. People show up late, they sit in the back and they're on
their phones the whole time. So, I use that as a segue into, I think I agree with Jan. I'm glad Jan
brought that up. I think that faculty governance has, it's not as important as it has been. I
remember we were out voting on a contract once and somebody basically said loud enough for
me to hear, let's get out of here, you're standing between me, between me and lunch. And
because it was one, it was, remember the spring, that spring kind of outdoor food thing and
faculty are invited. Typically, we voted on our contract right before then, back when we voted on
that. And I remember actually saying this with Dennis in the room once that faculty government,
governance, has really, has been sacrificed. And I understand it. I think there's the pressure to be,
to be a good teacher and to be, you know, a stronger researcher have amped up. And I don't see
people seeing governance in the same way that they did before. Now I think that's also partially
the board of trustees' fault. When, and I think one of the tipping points was when we voted to not
have student evaluations in all classes, which I kind of thought we did, but that's not the point.
You and I have talked about this a lot about the student evaluations. And then the board of
trustees kind of went over our head and did that. And I think that sent a message to the faculty
that it didn't really matter what you thought or what you did. So, the idea of this idea of shared
governance, governance kind of took a hit then. And so, I agree with, I agree with Jan. I think
that, well, agree is not being out the right word, but I appreciate Jan asking the question. Because
I think the motivation to participate in the viewed importance of faculty governance has
definitely, has definitely waned in my time here.
Jan Stivers (00:31:04):
Which maybe we'll circle back to again, in terms of what can we do to restore the sense of
community that you see slipping a bit. Yeah. That there may be something there. A more
optimistic topic, you headed the Center for Teaching Excellence. How did that change your
view of teaching or maybe your own teaching and also your perception of the faculty, the Marist
faculty?
Joe Kirtland (00:31:30):
Yeah. Well, as Cindy says, you know, there's always a group of faculty that are going to kind of
dialing it in that view it as a part-time job. But then when I was the director of the Center for
Teaching Excellence, I really realized how many great people and how many dedicated people
we actually have on campus.


Joseph Kirkland 13

Gus Nolan (00:31:48):
Can you describe a little bit what, what it is? Who goes to it? How do you get people and are you
meeting classes?
Jan Stivers (00:31:55):
Good question, we should get that on the record.
Gus Nolan (00:31:56):
It, yeah. I, I'll come right for the scene on.
Joe Kirtland (00:31:59):
Right, yeah. Who was it? Was it Lou Zuccarello? And I remember he was the, that's the only, he
didn't really schmooze me. He didn't take me out to lunch like you did Gus. But he came into my
office and said, you're, he did one of those ‘you're a great guy. I think you'd be perfect for this.’
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Um, it, it's kind of morphed into something different than what I
envisioned it at. When I first, I first envisioned it as being a, as the Center for Teaching
Excellence, being a resource for faculty. And so, we did have a reading room. One of it was
down here once, and then it was up in St. Anne's Hermitage. But it was, no one ever came there.
So that was, I realized I had to do more, you know, remote stuff. It was never going to work as a,
you know, come in, take a look at these books, take these books out, read them, this kind of stuff.
So, it had to be more dynamic. So, I had created a sort of teaching mentoring thing where I asked
anybody if they wanted to be a mentor, and I know you were. And then they would be available
at any time for someone to ask, look, can you come to my class? Or I'm trying this, what do you
think? And then every semester I did a sort of teaching exchange program where anybody who
wanted to, could volunteer. And if it was an even number of people, I just paired them up. And if
it was an odd number of people, I paired everybody up. And then I paired myself up with one
person. And they could do whatever they wanted to know, read through the syllabi, go to classes,
whatever they wanted. We could work on teaching. And I tried to match people from different
schools. So it wasn't like two people from the School of Science. It'd be someone from SBS and
science or, you know, communications and computer science or something like that, 'cause, I
think there's a lot of diverse opinions. And I, well, one of my firm beliefs is no one is so good at
teaching that they can't learn something new. That no one is so great at teaching, that no one is so
great at teaching that they can't learn something new. Everybody can learn something new,
Jan Stivers (00:33:45):
Especially from a different discipline.
Joe Kirtland (00:33:48):
Exactly. Right. Especially from a different discipline to see what they do. Which is why I match
them up that way. And then the last thing we did was we would have either, we'd have Friday
afternoon talks, which I envisioned it as being sort of a, a social hour with beer.
Joe Kirtland (00:34:01):


Joseph Kirkland 14

And I did it once. Nobody drank anything. So, I stopped that. I must've had, I, I must've ordered
a case of beer and there was like 23 bottles left at the end. So, um, so then we just made a coffee
and cookies kind of thing. And then those are more, those are more kind of lighthearted things
where a faculty member would come in and talk about, you know, I'm interested. I've been doing
a little bit of research on photography. And so, this is, I remember, Jim Luciana talked about
photography. Here's kind of the history of photography. So, it's just a way to get faculty together
talking about an interesting topic. And then I would have actual sessions during the Wednesday
activity period, which we'll get to in just a second. Where we'd have some sort of, you know,
technique or somebody would have done something like, we did a clicker talk, I think. I just ran
into him at a concert. He's in the psychology department, but he was using clickers when they
were first came out. And so, I had him give a talk about how that worked. So, it would be
simply, it would often be something about, you know, Eric Yeah. Eric Moody. Right. Thank you.
It would be something about, you know, some technique or something. We, Sue Lawrence and I
worked on grade inflation once, you know what it is, can we combat it? And didn't really go
anywhere, but at least we were talking about it and stuff. And that's basically what we did. And
anybody who wanted to, I made brochures that I handed out, which no longer happens. I made
600 brochures cause we had about, at that time, we had about 200 full-time, 400 part-time
faculty. So, I would hand 'em out to people. They'd be announced at the, at the beginning of the
semester. Now it's all online.
Jan Stivers (00:35:34):
You also did Saturday workshops for the part-time faculty?
Joe Kirtland (00:35:38):
For the part-time faculty? Yeah. We made sure we included the part-time faculty, and we paid
them. That was the holdover from Lou. And we would get a couple faculty members to come in
and talk about something that would improve or something that might help them.
Gus Nolan (00:35:49):
You were able to give them a stipend for coming?
Joe Kirtland (00:35:51):
We gave them all stipend. It was like 75 or a hundred dollars or something, per person for
coming. So that's kind of was the, that's what we got, how we, the carrot we used to bring 'em in.
And so, I like the fact that it was sort of emphasized at all faculty members, part-time and full-
time. But we rarely saw part-time faculty members just simply because, you know, a number of
them are often working at two or three different locations and, or working, this is a second job or
teaching regularly and this and that. So, it was hard to get them coming around to things. But
that's how it worked. And sorry the, the activity period has now become, it's swamped. I don't
think I could do what I do anymore during the activity period. There's just too much going on
then. And a lot, not a lot of people are free anymore. I think, I think if you want to talk about
moves for the future, it's not going to work until the teaching load changes. But I think we should
go to a Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Tuesday, Thursday set up. So, I personally think that math,
anything longer than 50 minutes in a math class is a waste. And I mean, I love math and I go to
lectures and after about 45 minutes, I'm starting to doze off. So, then the math classes could meet


Joseph Kirkland 15

three days a week, which I think is important. Or you could meet two days if you really wanted
to. And then the people want the longer sessions could meet Tuesday, Thursday. But with our,
with our teaching load, that wouldn't work because you'd either have a five day a week schedule,
or really busy three days or two-day schedule. So, it wouldn't work. And then you could maybe
work in some more activity periods into that schedule. But I don't think that's going to happen
anytime soon.
Gus Nolan (00:37:25):
You'd have to increase the faculty to be able to do that.
Joe Kirtland (00:37:28):
And that leads me to one of my, again, you guys are good at getting me to remember what I want
to say. I think that one of the bad parts about Marist College is that we kind of you know, stack
on activities or just think that we can kind of ask more and more people without kind of
providing the resources. And it's really stuck. It's really been, it's a really crawl that stuck in my,
stuck in my mouth. Cause I remember being on the negotiating committee and an administrator
had had some adjustments to his or her, I don't want to name the person nameless, their schedule.
And they had massive bump in salary. And yet we had been asking to do more assessment, doing
more student research, and everything else had been the same. But we didn't get this
commensurate bump in salary. And so, that really kind of rubbed me the wrong way. And I think
that's still the Marist motto, which we need to change it, instead of providing resources for, let's
just, for example, like the institutional research, that office should be, you know, 10 more people.
And I, it has two in there. It can't, it can't meet all the, the needs that, that are going on. So, I
think that's a culture at Marist that has to change. You know, that, we, you know, we will get
through. We'll just if we just, you know, do it ourselves and do more work, we'll get through.
And I think that's got to change.
Jan Stivers (00:38:50):
It's also always an add-on.
Joe Kirtland (00:38:52):
Yep. Nothing ever ever goes away.
Gus Nolan (00:38:55):
Would you say there's a, there's a need for an increase in flow of income to the college to be
able, I mean, as it is now, we're tuition driven. But you need to apply to some grants or rich
people or whatever to, you know, support these other activities which can't be demonstrated
necessarily on paper, you know.
Joe Kirtland (00:39:18):
Yeah, I agree with you. I mean, right. It, I'm just identifying the issue whether we how to solve
it. That's a, that's a slightly different issue, but you're right. Increase in the income would
definitely, it would definitely help. I'm on the budget and resources committee. I'm the chair of
that committee. I don't know why I did that, but hopefully I'll get a little more sense of the budget


Joseph Kirkland 16

over the next few years and be able to understand that a little bit more. But at the moment yes,
you're right. We're tuition driven and that limits us.
Gus Nolan (00:39:49):
Yeah. I mean, I'm kind of struck by 68 million for a new building, which I'm not sure we needed
to have 68 million be put into it, you know, whatever the need was. That's one thing. But I think
the image of what I wanted, you know, is what drove it. And I'm figuring without any authority
at all, or, you know, it's just kind of, I'm looking out and I say, well, okay. I mean, I lived here
and worked here, and I know what the territory's like, you know. So, alright, well we're moving
down towards the other part of this, which is, you know, how can we get to where we want to
go?
Joe Kirtland (00:40:36):
Wow. Oh, you're asking hard questions.
Jan Stivers (00:40:39):
Let me preface it with, when you arrived here, was the influence of the Marist Brothers evident
to you?
Joe Kirtland (00:40:48):
A little bit. I mean, and I think that the Marist brothers influence is still with us today. Right.
Kind of pick up your, you know, get off the ground, you know, wipe off the dust and get to work
on building things and working things. And I think that's still, that's still evident today. But it
wasn't that big. I mean, brother Kelly was still here. Um, Richard Rancourt was still here. He
was in the math and philosophy department. And there were other people, you know, that had
like Richard LaPietra that had been a Marist brother and then had, and then were not, had left the
Marist brothers. So it was a minor precedent, it wasn't a big one. But I think the sense of
community kind of lives on from them, which is, like I said, waiting. But I think people still
trying to make this a nice community, which builds on, and the idea that I mentioned before of
just, you know, picking yourself off the ground and getting to work on stuff. You know.
Jan Stivers (00:41:39):
So, let's go, a few minutes ago you said that there are things that we could do to bring back or to,
prevent that sense of community from slipping away. And then the change to the schedule was
one thing you mentioned. Was there anything else you wanted to mention?
Joe Kirtland (00:41:55):
I'd love to see the faculty dining hall brought back again. I mean, if you really want to, if you
want to get down to small things. I think the faculty schedule, the workload is still pretty high. I
mean, we were at 24 credits when I was first hired. Now we're at 21 credits. I think that that
needs to be weakened so we can actually have more time to go off and do stuff. Things like, you
know, I know I love what they do over at the steel plant where they have the art openings and
stuff. That helps create a sense of community. I've been to a couple, but it's, it's often difficult for
me to get there. John Gabra in the chemistry department started a biking group, and that's been
kind of fun cause I met some people, some professors that I hadn't met before that I didn't know.


Joseph Kirkland 17

So, you know, little things like that I think can help, sort of build that sense of community. But
there has to be a little bit of a give on the other side. Cause it's kind of hard to do that. I mean,
cause I'm teaching, you know, well, it's a different story.
Gus Nolan (00:42:54):
Simple questions there. Marist is different now than when you came in what ways is it better? In
what ways would you say we've lost something? Is that easy enough to
Joe Kirtland (00:43:10):
That's easy. I think we're definitely a much more diverse place than we were back then. I think
that there's a lot more to offer. I even though I lamented a little bit about the increase in students,
which I think has led to a little bit of the decrease in the quality. But with that said, having a
large number of students around campus, I like, I think that breeds a lot more activities, a lot
more kind of things for the students to do. A lot more interaction between the students, which I
think is a positive thing. The campus has definitely grown a lot since I've been here, which I
think is also a big plus. The more room you have, the more space you have to interact with other
people. I think that's a real plus, I like the new building. I'm in, I get a great view of the river. But
that's a different, a different story. I think the increase in faculty, the increase in the diversity of
the faculty has also helped. Remind me of the question again, Gus. It was, what has improved
and
Gus Nolan (00:44:10):
What have we lost?
Joe Kirtland (00:44:12):
What have we lost? Again, the sense of community is not as big as it as it was before. Just
knowing everybody on campus, as I also mentioned, you know, the sense of governance has
been lost, the bigger we've gotten. It's harder to meet people. One of, the only other lament I
would have, and in terms of room for improvement is that when I took my kids on college tours,
they're basically all the same. I mean, except that, you know, Harvard has a better name than we
do. You know, they're basically all the same. This is what we can offer to great students, great
faculty, blah, blah, blah, great activity, so on and so forth. There is only two real differences
about Marist. Number one, we had infinitely more office hours per week than everybody else I
went to. And I think that's a plus. And I don't think we should lose that, even though it's been
dropped to six. I think it used to be eight now, I think it's six. And I, but I still have eight. And I
think that's a really great thing about the college because it really indicates, or telemarks, or
foreshadows our commitment to the students. And most of this goes, I remember one student at
Tufts where my daughter ended up going, said, and the professor's available two hours a week to
. And it's like, I was like, Sidney basically looked at me and said, shut up, don't say anything.
And the other thing is the lack of dedicated student space that's unstructured, that's unscheduled,
that people can just show up anytime they want. I find that outside of a lot of these reading
rooms in the library, there's very little of that, and a lot of other schools have that. And I'd love to
see more of that at Marist places that, you know, like HC 2023, which is a great big room, but it
gets scheduled all the time. And, and so you can't, you can't really hang out in there. The
building,


Joseph Kirkland 18

Jan Stivers (00:46:02):
The student union building.
Joe Kirtland (00:46:03):
Yeah. cause student union building would be great. You know? You know where the kids can
get together and, you know, have a game room. Not video games anymore. Cause that'll have
'em in their rooms, you know, but maybe a pool table, I don't know, pinging pong tables, things
like that. Okay. I'll shut up.
Gus Nolan (00:46:18):
Along that line, going down to personalities and so on, one person you mentioned was Dennis
Murray. And he has really, you know, for 40 years kind of captured the image. And we used to
care about him measuring the size of grass, how much yeah. In terms of those things, and
certainly had a big influence. But who would you say were the real, you know, pushes of Marist
to keep the institution alive with them, the spirit that it has? Yeah. I mean, no one ever came here
to take Dennis's course. Right, okay. But they might come here. I think they came here for
chemistry. I know they did chem for chemistry. I have a doctor whose son, you know, for
summer, he'd have 'em come here to take chemistry at Marist because the chemistry at Marist
was way above chemistry any place else. You know, so the good teachers are really part of it.
but, uh, I don't know if I'm on the right track. I mean, this is where I am.
Joe Kirtland (00:47:29):
Yeah, I agree. You know, Dennis I think did a lot. He had a, he had an interesting vision. Um, I
think he, you're right, I think he micromanaged a little too much. But I think he had a great
vision and he definitely helped the college get to, you know, the stage where we are now. I mean,
again, some good, some bad, but I think he definitely was a great influencer. I think that the other
big influence was the recognition of the importance of technology and being a big, being
dedicated to that. I don't know, I might, I don't have anybody in mind to specifically pin that on.
But whoever recognized that I think was, was good. Coming back to this room, I know that you
had definitely a big vision. Jan Stivers, also in this room had a big vision about what she thought
the teaching department, the School of Social and Behavioral Sciences should be. Richard
McGovern had some great ideas, he talked about Richard LaPierre was also really big. I
remember talking to him about some of the things that he had in mind about where the, where
the college could go. So those are just some samples of faculty members. I'm trying to think of
some others.
Jan Stivers (00:48:35):
I think you mentioned Lynn Doty.
Joe Kirtland (00:48:37):
Yeah, Lynn Doty was big. Yeah. I love, I love Lynn Doty. You know, she was one of my,
Carolyn Rider I still look up to today. Yeah. Carolyn Ryder always had great ideas, and I think
she was big in the MBA program and so and so forth. I don't know the inner workings behind the
scenes, so I can't, I can't, I can't talk from the administrative point of view, but who I think really
kind of, you know, brought us to where we are. But I think it was a definitely commitment of


Joseph Kirkland 19

some, of some big faculty members. You know, rich saw the right on the wall to get an applied
mathematics major, which has now become our biggest major. And other people have done other
things. I mean, a tell who is communicated the data science major, there's a lot of great faculty
members that, and I'm missing tons I know. Who have, who have, you know, had an influence
on kind of some sort of directions we've taken. Yeah.
Gus Nolan (00:49:28):
I mean, the leadership now with Kevin is, he seems to have hit the right button and saying, it's
not a matter how we are going to go, liberal arts of science we’re going to do both, it's and rather,
or, you know, and, I think that kind of is the right clue whether we can deliver or not, remains to
be seen, you know?
Joe Kirtland (00:49:50):
No, that's important. Sorry, one more thing. Sorry to interrupt you, Jan. I agree with you. And I
think that in terms of the students, I think colleges are becoming more pre-professional or kind of
trade schools than they, than what we remember as what college being. And you're definitely
going to have to deal with that because, I mean, you see it in the attitudes of the students. You
know, they don't care about the material. They just want to get the past the class to do check next
check mark. They're not really care about learning or developing any skills, communication
skills, writing skills, critical thinking skills, synthesis skills. They're, they're just worried about
passing the course, well, I shouldn’t say generalize that thought, but many are. I lost my train of
thought.
Jan Stivers (00:50:27):
Credential.
Joe Kirtland (00:50:28):
Credential, yeah. Credential bear. Yeah. So, I think that, I think you're right. I think you've hit
the nail right in the head, Gus. I think that's a real big issue that, we're going to have to confront.
Jan Stivers (00:50:37):
So, you are on search committees, what, in a perfect world, what would you tell people who are
considering coming to Marist?
Joe Kirtland (00:50:48):
Yeah. I've given that speech, you know, tons of times. The great thing about Marist College is
the location number one. We've got a great location. You know, if you like the city, it's two
hours away. If you like hiking, that's right there. There's tons of great little happy places in the
Hudson Valley to go hang out and shop or whatever you want to do and explore and so on, so
forth. So, I talk about the location is, is really great. I really do think that Marist College is one of
the great locations in the United States in terms of, in terms of where it should be, where it is.
Second, I talk about sort of the community, at least in the math department. Cause I'm selling the
math department. I can't really sell the greater college, but I do talk about the community in the
math department and how we get together. We have seminars. We go out to dinner; we have a
great community there. And the third thing I talk about is how we really focus on the community


Joseph Kirkland 20

of learners here. We really focus on the students and we're available to students. We're not, I
mean, when I look at applicants, I usually take the top, however many, and I kind of move them
aside because they're coming from, you know, X, Y, Z and normally, well, where most people
are coming from. And their research statement is eight pages long. And there, it's clear that they
want to reach our one university, and we're not, we're not that place. So, we wouldn't be
appropriate for them. So, I just, then I talk about the commitment to the students and so and so
forth. And then I talk about other minor things, whatever their interest might be. I, we talk about
the ability to go to conferences, which we have the, the PDF money that we have. You know,
little things like that that kind of help 'em. So those, that's kind of my generic speech.
Jan Stivers (00:52:27):
And if this was a good friend of yours, a family member, would you, would you tell 'em to
come?
Joe Kirtland (00:52:34):
It, I'll, if there was a good family member and they, they wanted a job, I would tell them to come.
I'd probably give them a little bit more heads up of some of the dark, dark side's not right. But
the downside of Marist. But yeah.
Gus Nolan (00:52:51):
Two questions left.
Joe Kirtland (00:52:52):
I mean, my son went to school here, so I, you know…
Gus Nolan (00:52:57):
Um, is he employed?
Joe Kirtland (00:53:00):
Yeah, he is, but my son has, my son has other issues.
Gus Nolan (00:53:03):
Very good. I won't go there. I want to ask you this though. The crystal ball. What do you see 10
years from now? By all means.
Joe Kirtland (00:53:14):
The crystal ball.
Jan Stivers (00:53:16):
Or what, what do you want Marist to be?
Joe Kirtland (00:53:17):


Joseph Kirkland 21

What I want Marist to be, I would love Marist to be, the number one, I think it needs to be a
more diverse place. I think we're working on it. I, as I've been telling, I'm no longer chair, but
when I was chair, I'm like, we, I'm working to get people like me, not that white males are bad
necessarily, but I'm trying to get more people of color and more diversity in our department. And
so, I think that if we could do that, I think that that'd be, that it'd be great for faculty and students.
That'd be first thing. Two, my crystal ball would be we reduce the teaching load of the faculty. I
think that you stifle or can stifle innovation, you know, when all you're asked 'em to do is teach.
And it's even hard to work on teaching when you're teaching that much. I think that if we reduce
the teaching load, that would be, that would be a real positive thing. Third, I think we need to
interact more with faculty to learn about each other and to learn about me. I still get faculty, and
these are faculty members at the college that say, yeah, I suck at math. And they broadcast that.
And I'm like, okay, do I go around saying I suck at English, or I suck at communications? I
really don't like to read. Yeah, I really don't like to read. That always bothers me. And I think
we've gotta be a little bit better at appreciating each other. And I think that comes from knowing
each other a little bit better. So, I'd love to see the course reduction, released a little bit, so that
we could actually have more time to kind of explore. And this would give us more time to
interact with each other, more time to, you know, come up with fun things. Now with that said,
I'm just amazed at how many we've lectures here and talks there, and there definitely are a group
of people that are really working hard on these kinds of things. But I often find I can't go to all
these things. The one other thing is, and that's the one issue that Marist can't solve, is that, you
know, a lot of schools, there's a big college community right around that. And I don't think we're
ever going to get that place because I live 30 minutes away and most faculty live around that I
don't know what the average is, but it's going to be far away. And so, coming, you know,
working all day and then coming back to a seven o'clock talk, it's a little bit difficult for me.
Coming back to see a student play, which I would love to do, was a little bit difficult for me. I
mean, my daughter loves sports. We used to come down and see some sports every so often. But
anything that we could do to create a community, a bigger community outside of Marist, that's
happening a little bit with terms of the shops and stuff. It's making it a little bit more of a
community, but…
Jan Stivers (00:55:47):
Faculty housing.
Joe Kirtland (00:55:49):
Yeah, faculty housing. I think that would be a real big thing. If we could get some sort of faculty
housing nearby. Maybe you, maybe it's only there for two, you get tenure or something. I don't
know, whatever. But, you know, cause that when you, when you're, I remember when my dad, I
mean, Wells College is very unique. It's, there's Aurora, there's Wells College. That's it. There's
nothing else there. And we were on campus all the time. I mean, I spent half my life on that
college campus stealing cigarettes from the cigarette machine when I was younger. Don't tell my
parents that cause they still had cigarette machines on campus back then. But I think that that
larger sense of community is missing a little bit. And I'd love to be, see that now, how that
happens. I don't know.
Jan Stivers (00:56:30):


Joseph Kirkland 22

Well, probably through college administration connecting with Poughkeepsie City government
to build, build that kind of community.
Joe Kirtland (00:56:42):
Yeah, I mean, I think the tragedy that happened to the, the parent that just, it really, that really is
awful. And that's setting us back quite a bit. Yeah.
Jan Stivers (00:56:51):
Joe, do you have any other observations that you want to make? Anything you were thinking
about ahead of time that we didn't ask you about?
Joe Kirtland (00:57:01):
Just thinking about it, I never hadn't seen Gus Nolan in a long time. Now I have.
Gus Nolan (00:57:06):
You want to go to lunch?
Joe Kirtland (00:57:06):
No. I, I can't. I'm leaving. I was, I was telling Jan before I was, I'm, I, my daughter is, is getting
married next October, and we've met, well, her girlfriend's mother's divorced. We've met her and
her husband, but not her father. So, we're going down to New Jersey for the weekend to hang out
with her mother and her father-in-law, not father-in-law, that's me, stepdad, whatever. You
know, her wife's her mother's husband. No, I think you've kind of, you, you've touched them all.
The only thing I'll say is that, is that I think the administration has to change a little bit. I think
that Kevin is a bright spot, and I'm not going to mention any names, but I've definitely had some
interactions with people. And it's very clear that they are telling us what to do. It's not us
deciding together what to do. And that I find problematic. If we really want to have shared
governance, we should be working together. Sure. Yes. I understand that you're an administrator.
I understand that you going to have to make certain decisions that I don't have to make it, and I
get all that. But I get yelled at a few times for doing stuff that I'm like, okay, where did this come
from? You know, let's, let's sit down and talk about it. So, I think that the administration
zeitgeist, I think, has to change a little bit.
Jan Stivers (00:58:44):
Do you think that there's administrative respect for faculty?
Joe Kirtland (00:58:48):
I think cause I, I would say no. I, I think, and that even is Okay. I could call it out. I think that
even is in the AVPs office. I think there's literally no support for the faculty in the AVPs office,
which I find bad. Which I, which is why I like that Kevin is changing the name to pro-, what was
it, Provost dean of faculty? I forget what he's changing it to. Which at least had the outside has
the potential of being a much more, um, inclusive kind of role supporting the faculty. I get the
sense that that office is meant to, in its former role, is meant to tell the faculty what to do. And
yes, you know I understand there's certain things that we, like, assessment's not going to go


Joseph Kirkland 23

away. We're going to have to definitely do that. Yes, there are certain things that, that, that office
has to implement that we might not like. And I get that part, and I, I'm not, I'm not talking about
necessarily things like that. I just think that, um, there's this view that, and some faculty
definitely viewed it as a part-time job, and so they commit that. But the faculty are kind of no
good, you know, lazy, you know, all they want to do is sit around all day. And I don't think
there's a much appreciation for them. Now, with that said, I don't, I'm not, I'm not on the Dean's
Council. I don't go to those meetings. I'm not in the cabinet. It could be that certain people are
fighting tooth and nail for the faculty. I, I just don't see it. I, I don't see that there's a respect for
the faculty. I just think there's someone too kind of their people just kind of dealt with, be dealt
with. Yeah.
Gus Nolan (01:00:12):
Well, thank you very much.
Joe Kirtland (01:00:12):
Thank you.
Jan Stivers (01:00:15):
Before we let you go, I do want to get on the record that we invited you for this interview,
because we are interviewing people. Gus has done it up to about 150 of them. I think there's a
total,
Joe Kirtland (01:00:25):
Oh my god.
Jan Stivers (01:00:26):
Of 200. But the people that we've invited are people who had a, a role in shaping the
development of the college. So, we want to thank you for that. We really want to thank you.
Joe Kirtland (01:00:37):
You did. I, wow. Now I'm really going to cry. You are too kind. No, I think the only, the only
reason why I've done anything worth anything here at the college is because I've had great
support and I've had great people to talk to and share ideas with. Like you, Jan, and like Gus,
who schmoozed me, which I thought I'd made, I'd made it at that point. I'm like, oh, I'm in now.
But, um, it's,
Jan Stivers (01:01:02):
Well, we certainly see goodness of it Joe.
Joe Kirtland (01:01:05):
Well, thank you. Oh, yes, I do enjoy it here.
Gus Nolan (01:01:08):
Yeah. Right.


Joseph Kirkland 24

Jan Stivers (01:01:09):
Thank you very, very much.
Joe Kirtland (01:01:10):
You're welcome.