Interview with: William Carroll
Marist College
Poughkeepsie, NY
Transcribed
by
Lola-Dillon Cahill
For the Marist College Archives and Special Collections




William Carroll
2


Interviewee:
William Carroll
Interviewer:
Gus Nolan
Interview Date:
10 June 2018
Location:
James A. Cannavino Library
Topic:
Gus Nolan and William Carroll discuss in this interview how the Marist Brothers and
Marist College have changed over the years, the positives and negatives of both, and how
they’ve impacted his life since childhood.
Subject Headings:
William Carroll
Marist Prep
Marist College History

Marist College, Poughkeepsie, NY
Summary:
In this interview, Gus Nolan asks William Carroll about his childhood, decision to
get involved with the Marist Brothers, and his time in the college and with the order. They also
spend time talking about Carroll’s decision to leave the Brothers, go back to teaching, and
eventually pursue jobs in several different humanitarian fields and organizations. Finally, they
discuss how he views Marist College now and how the school can continue to improve.






William Carroll
3


WC:
00;00;02;02 - 00;00;05;04
Thank you, Audrey.

GN:
00;00;05;06 - 00;01;04;05
Today is June the tenth. And we have a happy opportunity to interview Bill Carroll, who is an
alumni of Marist College and, a long-time friend for the Marist community. So, Bill, this is a
five-part question and answer situation. The first group deals with before Marist, then Marist,
then after Marist, then your professional life, and then an overview about what you think of what
you know of Marist, and society, and the people that you worked with, and all that kind of mix.
So, briefly, could you give us a little thumbnail review of where were you born and, you don't
have to say when, but the area generally and grade school, and that kind of thing.

WC:
00;01;04;07 - 00;01;09;07
Born in Jamaica Hospital, in Queens.

GN:
00;01;09;09 - 00;01;10;27
That’s in New York City <laugh>.

WC:
00;01;10;27 - 00;01;33;04


William Carroll
4


That is in the very same borough of--very same city with the borough of Queens. Yes. And grew
up in various parts of South Ozone Park, which is very near to Kennedy Airport and Aqueduct
Racetrack. And went to a few different schools [pause] let’s see.

GN:
00;01;33;07 - 00;01;37;08
Are the grade schools still there that you went to?

WC:
00;01;37;11 - 00;01;52;25
That's a good question. It was a P.S. 121 and there was a Saint Pius the Fifth. I haven't been back
in the vicinity in a while to know if they're still there or not.

GN:
00;01;52;28 - 00;01;59;18
It's not really important—how about the family, you had brothers and sisters, are you only child
or--?

WC:
00;01;59;23 - 00;02;22;12
I had one sister, and she's four years younger than me and still alive. And she lives in a suburb of
Dallas, Texas now. Three grown children with families of their own. And one is actually a West
Point grad.



William Carroll
5


GN:
00;02;22;14 - 00;02;37;28
Wow. Okay. How about the growing up part? How were you--what did you do? Did you study all
the time? Did you have hobbies, or play sports, were you into music? How would you describe
that era of your life?

WC:
00;02;38;00 - 00;03;13;06
I was mainly playing various sports, primarily. Baseball, mostly baseball as a kid. And, down at
the at the park within walking distance, the local park where we would regularly have pick-up
games of various types, and then across the street from the park, every couple of years, there was
a carnival set up that was a nice place to hang out for a while. And, nothing in the way of music.
You know, the--

GN:
00;03;13;08 - 00;03;15;04
Choir, nothing like that?

WC:
00;03;15;05 - 00;03;17;08
No, none of those hidden talents--

GN:
00;03;17;08 - 00;03;17;24
All right.


William Carroll
6



WC:
00;03;17;24 - 00;03;19;12
--have emerged.

GN:
00;03;19;15 - 00;03;21;10
No stamp collection, or? <Laugh>

WC:
00;03;21;14 - 00;03;28;00
Actually, I did have a stamp collection back in the day. I don't know what happened to it, but,
Yeah, I used to be serious about that as a kid.

GN:
00;03;28;06 - 00;03;28;29
Uh-huh <affirmative>.

WC:
00;03;29;24 - 00;03;31;26
But it's long gone.

GN:
00;03;32;00 - 00;03;35;17
You're the first person who ever said that to me now, that they had a stamp collection.


William Carroll
7



WC:
00;03;35;17 - 00;03;36;29
Really? Oh, well I did have one.

GN:
00;03;36;29 - 00;03;39;20
I throw it out just to see where we're going.

WC:
00;03;39;20 - 00;03;40;17
Okay.

GN:
00;03;40;19 - 00;03;43;24
Let's move on to high school. Where did you go to high school?

WC:
00;03;43;26 - 00;04;26;26
I, living in Queens, took the train into Manhattan every day, ninth grade, to go to Saint Anne's
Academy. Because at the end of my ninth grade, Saint Anne's Academy was closing and
reopening as Archbishop Molloy, which was not far away from where I lived. So, it was one year
of crazy commute for the purpose of then being able to go to a much closer location. And in


William Carroll
8


effect, that didn't happen because I wound up going to Marist Prep in Esopus, New York. So, I
went even further away from home <laugh> than the trip to Manhattan.

GN:
00;04;26;29 - 00;04;38;25
Were you the ( ) part of your life at Saint Anne's and 76th Street and--what was, do you
remember who was there? Who taught? Any teachers in particular?

WC:
00;04;38;27 - 00;04;45;28
Oh, yes. I remember a--my homeroom teacher, Brother Luke Martin Reddington. And another--

GN:
00;04;46;00 - 00;04;47;26
Oh, yeah. Recently deceased.

WC:
00;04;47;26 - 00;05;10;08
Yes. Recently deceased. Another, Martin Luke, I forget his family name. And then there was, oh
God, Patrick Daniel, I believe, or Patrick Matthew, who taught science, I think. And…

GN:
00;05;10;11 - 00;05;12;27
Did you take typing with--


William Carroll
9



WC:
00;05;12;29 - 00;05;43;29
No typing. No. And actually, the year when I was in the eighth grade, I believe, probably at Saint
Pius, which was in South Jamaica, I was being recruited to go into seminary. And at the end of
eighth grade, they were trying to get me, and my mother said, you're too young. Wait at least a
year. So, then I go to the Saint Anne's Academy and somehow come across this Brother Aiden
Francis.

GN:
00;05;44;01 - 00;05;45;01
I know the name very well.

WC:
00;05;45;04 - 00;05;47;19
You don't--you know more than the name I presume.

GN:
00;05;47;22 - 00;05;48;21
I do <laugh>.

WC:
00;05;48;27 - 00;05;59;18


William Carroll
10


Yes. And he was this smiley-faced guy who was a recruiter, and he had the, what did you call it?
The thing that used to be--

GN:
00;05;59;18 - 00;06;00;06
Cords and tassels—

WC:

The cords and he would—

GN:

Whip them around.

WC:
00;06;00;06 - 00;06;13;15
Juggle them like it was a very, you know, very interesting, appealing kind of thing. So, that was
the path to Marist Prep the following year in tenth grade.

GN:
00;06;13;18 - 00;06;18;00
All right. When you go into Marist Prep now, who was there?



William Carroll
11


WC:
00;06;18;03 - 00;06;22;19
Brother Stephen Urban would be the presiding—

GN:
00;06;22;21 - 00;06;23;17
Director of operations.

WC:
00;06;23;18 - 00;06;28;22
Director. And then Brother John Berchmans, Brother Frank Solano.

GN:
00;06;28;24 - 00;06;30;29
Oh, I was going to say. Did you know Solano, indeed you did <laugh>.

WC:
00;06;31;01 - 00;06;48;21
Of course, and one of the interesting memories there is, both of those were French Canadians,
and their English was a little bit rough to pick up. And they weren't great at remembering names,
so we were all given numbers.

GN:
00;06;48;24 - 00;06;51;11
Do you remember your number? <Laugh>


William Carroll
12



WC:
00;06;51;14 - 00;06;57;04
Twenty-three. Absolutely. I--it's in my email now, today is Bill Carr twenty-three.

GN:
00;06;57;04 - 00;06;58;04
Oh, I didn’t realize that.

WC:
00;06;58;07 - 00;07;10;16
That number didn't go away, but we would get work assignments or whatever. And it would be,
the grounds crew today is twenty-three, forty-five, seventeen, and thirty-one.

GN:
00;07;10;16 - 00;07;11;21
It's like a flight <laugh>.

WC:
00;07;11;23 - 00;07;14;03
That's right. That's how we were assigned--by number.

GN:
00;07;14;09 - 00;07;31;23


William Carroll
13


Yeah. I joined that group later. Remembrance of Esopus though. I mean, what stands out of your
memory of those years? It wouldn’t be the meals, but perhaps--

WC:
00;07;31;26 – 00;08;21;15
Well, not so much the meals. But the Brothers had a separate cafeteria area, and we were
responsible for cleaning up after dinner and doing the dishes, etc. During the meals, though, we
were generally not allowed to talk most of the time, so we had hand signals for everything. This
was bread and this was butter, and this was dessert. And so you had a signal for what you want
passed to you on the table. But then the Brothers had their own little dining room and we had to
clean up in there as well. And there was a little storage area that was set up for the Brothers. And
occasionally there would be some beers in there that we would try to, on occasion, partake of,
you know, one or two missing, who’s going to know?

GN:
00;08;21;18 - 00;08;22;00
Uh-huh.

WC:
00;08;22;03 - 00;08;31;20
So that was, that was interesting. Then we had these classrooms that you had to go up a winding
stair to get to, I don't know, do you recall that?



William Carroll
14


GN:
00;08;31;21 - 00;08;33;01
I do recall that.

WC:
00;08;33;02 - 00;08;36;04
Okay, now, you didn't teach there, did you?

GN:
00;08;36;06 - 00;08;36;29
Yeah.

WC:
00;08;37;02 - 00;08;39;05
At the prep or at the novitiate?

GN:
00;08;39;13 - 00;08;45;25
Well, no, by the time I joined the staff we had moved to the other side of the campus.

WC:
00;08;45;25 - 00;08;57;12
Okay. Yeah. Yes. So, we used to go up there and we had some, now, I recall some of the teachers,
Robert James--Brother Robert James. Brother Leonard--Lenny Alphonse.



William Carroll
15


GN:
00;08;57;12 - 00;08;58;10
Yeah. All right.

WC:
00;08;58;13 - 00;09;05;01
They were some good teachers and even, Peter Leonard. Brother Peter Leonard, who was back
from the Philippines.

GN:
00;09;05;03 - 00;09;05;26
Right.

WC:
00;09;05;28 - 00;09;21;05
And he would call people by their name, mostly by their last name. And he called on me one day
and he said, what's your name over there in the corner? I said, Carroll, he said, what's your last
name? <Laugh> He was a sarcastic son of a bitch.

GN:
00;09;21;08 - 00;09;22;00
<Laugh> Yeah.

WC:
00;09;22;20 - 00;09;34;15


William Carroll
16


And then we used to have all kinds of memorable sporting events. The Army-Navy annual
football game was a classic. And--

GN:
00;09;34;17 - 00;09;35;22
On Thanksgiving Day.

WC:
00;09;35;22 - 00;09;50;07
On Thanksgiving Day. That's right. And it was, two of my classmates were the outstanding
football players. And it was Bill Ford against Vinnie Foley back in the day, they were the two
quarterbacks of the teams. And then—

GN:
00;09;50;09 - 00;09;54;25
Now there were no uniforms or anything of that sort.

WC:

Oh, no.

GN:

It was just a touch football. But there was blocking, I believe.


William Carroll
17



WC:
00;09;59;01 - 00;10;38;08
Yes, it was touch blocking and no uniforms. And then there was the memorable year when--we
had a very nice gym--but the gym floor was getting scuffed up and whatnot, and we had to go in
there and on hands and knees, clear away the old surface before it was going to be resealed. And
we used a gasoline product. And people liked that job because by the end of two or three hours,
you were high. <Laugh> High from rubbing the old surface off the gym floor.

GN:
00;10;38;10 - 00;10;43;01
Never heard that story. I don't think it's true, but I’ll believe you, okay <laugh>.

WC:
00;10;43;04 - 00;10;44;26
Well, you know, that could be confirmed.

GN:
00;10;44;28 - 00;10;55;28
All right. Along with the estate that you lived at, I mean there was the annual, you were there for
three years? Or two years.

WC:
00;10;55;29 - 00;10;57;03


William Carroll
18


Three years. Three years.

GN:
00;10;57;10 - 00;10;58;01
Yes. Okay.

WC:
00;10;58;04 - 00;11;03;02
And the other thing we did is, we built the swimming pool.

GN:
00;11;03;04 - 00;11;03;18
Oh, yes.

WC:
00;11;03;19 - 00;11;08;19
It was a guy, a local guy. I think he may have been retired.

GN:
00;11;08;21 - 00;11;10;10
Mike Hasbrouck. Hasbrouck was the name.

WC:
00;11;10;13 - 00;11;12;01


William Carroll
19


He went by Cap, I believe. Didn’t he?

GN:
00;11;12;03 - 00;11;12;22
We called him Cap.

WC:
00;11;12;23 - 00;11;18;28
Cap, yes. Okay. And we were tying the steel. It was quite an adventure.

GN:
00;11;18;28 – 00;12;03;18
I’ll tell you something. He actually built the first pool in the White House for FDR. Yeah. But he
told me his crowning project was doing that one in Esopus where the kids would do everything
he wanted. He had a crew of about forty out there with wires tiring. He never had a more perfect
frame upon which he poured the concrete, if you remember how it was done. It was--the floor
was first, so you always have a platform to work from. And then he tied the walls into that. I was
there with [pause], Dennis Damian was also part of that combination.

WC:
00;12;03;18 - 00;12;05;15
Okay, Dennis Damien. Sure.



William Carroll
20


GN:
00;12;05;17 - 00;12;08;16
Okay. And Burkie of course was--

WC:
00;12;08;19 - 00;12;09;06
Always on the scene.

GN:
00;12;09;06 - 00;12;20;04
Always on the scene. All right. I’m commandeering too much of this. Move on from Marist and
the juniorate now, to the next step.

WC:
00;12;20;04 - 00;12;22;24
To the other end of the property.

GN:
00;12;22;24 - 00;12;24;05
All right.

WC:

The old mansion.



William Carroll
21


GN:

Okay.

WC:
00;12;24;05 - 00;12;27;27
With Peter Hillary as the master of novices.

GN:
00;12;27;28 - 00;12;28;09
Right.

WC:
00;12;28;13 - 00;12;29;18
He was a tough guy.

GN:
00;12;29;20 - 00;12;30;07
Yeah.

WC:
00;12;30;10 - 00;12;34;17
But he had an, he had a smirky smile and a good heart.



William Carroll
22


GN:
00;12;34;19 - 00;12;35;10
Yeah.

WC:
00;12;35;13 - 00;12;39;16
But you didn't often get to see it. He would be a hard ass most of the time <laugh>.

GN:
00;12;39;18 - 00;12;40;07
No, he was tough.

WC:
00;12;40;09 - 00;13;12;29
<Laugh> He was tough, but he was good. And that was a tough period. I remember, you know,
now we talked about having silence in the juniorate for meals. Here we had silence almost all
day long, from morning ‘til a little break after lunch, we might have had fifteen, twenty minutes
where we could talk and then back to class and study and religious study and then, after dinner,
we had about an hour where--well, no, we had recreation in the afternoon for maybe an hour and
a half after class. From three-thirty to five.

GN:
00;13;13;01 - 00;13;16;19
You had to decide if ( ) you had to go over to the gym for that.


William Carroll
23



WC:
00;13;16;21 - 00;13;48;21
Pretty much. Yes. And we had to share it with the people on that end of the property. Yeah. And
then we'd come back, and we'd have some prayers and dinner and then another maybe half hour
of hang-out and recreation. But, yeah, I went through a period of, I guess you would say stress or
anxiety, I don’t get it, I didn’t know what was the matter. I had to get a GI series. And it turned
out I had nothing wrong. It was just—

GN:

Mental.

WC:

Mental. It was mental more than anything.

GN:
00;13;48;23 - 00;13;57;25
They would do that to you, always could happen. I appreciate what you're saying. All right.
Move on from the novitiate to Marist College.

WC:
00;13;57;27 - 00;14;12;12


William Carroll
24


The very same location where we now sit, that would be. Yes. And, so we came over for last
three years of college, and I was a math major.

GN:
00;14;12;14 - 00;14;13;00
Okay.

WC:
00;14;13;01 - 00;14;22;21
So, I had people like, Kevin Carolyn was an instructor of mine. There was an “Okay” Thomas.

GN:
00;14;22;24 - 00;14;23;10
Okay.

WC:
00;14;23;15 - 00;14;33;18
He was a lay teacher and very difficult to understand. And he'd say something, do you get it
now? It was, okay? Okay? Okay? Nice guy but--

GN:
00;14;33;18 - 00;14;36;13
Language was a problem.



William Carroll
25


WC:

Hmm?

GN:

Language was a problem?

WC:
00;14;36;15 - 00;14;57;19
No, no, no, it wasn’t the language--it was the--his ability to teach mathematics was the problem.

GN:

I see.

WC:

And he'd always say, did you get that? Or you got it? Okay? Okay? It was just his kind of little
mannerism. And, then we used to regularly--out front in front of the chapel, that big grass area.
That used to be our football field.

GN:
00;14;59;21 - 00;15;00;06
Yes.


William Carroll
26



WC:
00;15;00;12 - 00;15;42;04
And we had a group called the ODFs, which meant out the door by four. Mike O'Neill was the
leader of the pack <laugh>. As soon as you could get out of class, you‘d change and you were
out there on the field getting ready to play football or softball or whatever the sporting event of
the year would be, and then we'd be playing in the old gymnasium, play basketball. And we used
to, once in a while, have a team. We'd play against the lay students. This is back when Tom Wade
was, I think at first, he coached the basketball team.

GN:
00;15;42;06 - 00;16;02;20
Right. Saint Mary's in Manhasset as a basketball coach and then also as a recruiter or, admissions
going out, trying to recruit people to come. I mean, I just, I know, now--at exactly what point he
changed from one to the other I don't know.

WC:
00;16;02;22 - 00;16;03;13
Yeah.

GN:
00;16;03;15 - 00;16;04;25
About what year was this?



William Carroll
27


WC:
00;16;04;28 - 00;16;14;29
This was, ‘63 probably. I graduated in ‘65. So, it was probably ‘63 when we came over.

GN:
00;16;15;00 - 00;16;18;08
What was the percentage of lay students to Brothers?

WC:
00;16;18;10 - 00;16;27;04
Oh, God. It was quite small. Yeah. I would probably say [pause] twenty or thirty percent.

GN:
00;16;27;06 - 00;16;35;06
Were the--any of the dormitories up yet? Was Sheahan up?

WC:
00;16;35;08 - 00;16;37;15
Let's see. What's the one before—was Sheahan the first?

GN:

Sheahan was first, yeah.



William Carroll
28


WC:

Okay. Yeah. Sheahan was there.

GN:

Then Leo.

WC:

Leo, yes.

GN:
00;16;43;18 - 00;16;45;13
Okay. But not Champagnat yet?

WC:
00;16;45;13 - 00;16;50;22
Champagnat was, I think in construction at the time.

GN:
00;16;50;25 - 00;16;51;10
Okay.

WC:
00;16;51;17 - 00;16;55;02





William Carroll
29


And Donnelly was the main class facility. That’s where we went from—

GN:
00;16;55;02 - 00;16;57;24
That was the only one. Yeah.

WC:

Yeah?

GN:

Right.

WC:
00;16;57;26 - 00;17;04;03
The only one at the time. And Nilus driving around in his
Citroën.



GN:
00;17;04;06 - 00;17;05;22
Oh. How well you remember.

WC:
00;17;05;24 - 00;17;15;17


William Carroll
30


Oh, yeah. He was something else. He seemed like he lived his own kind of lifestyle <laugh>. A
little different than everybody else.

GN:
00;17;15;19 - 00;17;28;21
And now, and he lived also in that gatehouse where they, what they call Saint Peter's. The--I
mean, Champagnat is not up yet. So, his house—his house—his room was eventually going to be
on the top of Champagnat.

WC:
00;17;28;21 - 00;17;31;05
Yes. His little suite up there, I think.

GN:
00;17;31;05 - 00;17;42;12
Right. It became something. Do you remember him in terms of any of the activities like building
the chapel or anything like that?

WC:
00;17;42;14 - 00;17;47;29
Yeah. He was like the overall capital project guy for the whole place <laugh>.

GN:
00;17;47;29 - 00;17;55;05


William Carroll
31


The engineer, and the architect, and also the driver of the bulldozer and the derrick that we had,
such as it was.

WC:
00;17;55;05 - 00;18;01;12
Yeah, he did it all when it came to the construction projects. Yeah.

GN:
00;18;01;14 - 00;18;25;14
What—looking back, you just dropped a note there before about math being your major [pause]
as you look back at your college experience, how would you rate it? Would you say it was below
normal? Normal? A little ahead of what you think other people got going to Manhattan,
Fordham, or wherever?

WC:
00;18;25;16 - 00;18;40;07
I would think it was probably comparable, education wise, to what students got at the, Fordham,
Manhattans or whatever. I think we got a very good education.

GN:
00;18;40;10 - 00;18;47;08
I'm going to—philosophy, for instance. Had Ed Donohue come here yet?



William Carroll
32


WC:
00;18;47;11 - 00;18;53;16
Ed Donohue, no. But we had Ed Cashin who was an outstanding history teacher.

GN:
00;18;53;16 - 00;18;54;07
Oh, you did have--okay.

WC:
00;18;54;09 - 00;19;02;02
We had Bill Murphy, who was a very interesting philosophy religion teacher. We had—

GN:
00;19;02;04 - 00;19;05;20
A public relations man for all the world. And never mind the community.

WC:
00;19;05;20 - 00;19;11;00
Probably. So, yeah, at least and, what's his name, Doctor Drennen.

GN:
00;19;11;02 - 00;19;12;14
Oh, lord save us <laugh>.



William Carroll
33


WC:
00;19;12;16 - 00;19;17;13
Jesus, we had some. Yeah, some interesting people. Casey.

GN:

Tom Casey.

WC:
00;19;18;50 - 00;19;23;13
Tom Casey. Yeah, we had some good quality educators, mm-hmm <affirmative>.

GN:
00;19;23;14 - 00;19;49;15
Yeah. I’ve had people say since I asked this question because, people in my time sometimes said
well, this was nothing more than high school, but it’s only because as they moved up, they were
able to do it, you know, and be able to comprehend more of the complex ideas. And they thought
it should be somehow or other beyond their reach, but they were well trained in the process.

WC:

Yes.

GN:
00;19;49;18 - 00;20;00;05


William Carroll
34


Moving on now, while you were here, was it your mind to become a teacher?

WC:
00;20;00;08 - 00;21;28;24
Yes. I mean, that was kind of the plan for most of us. We were expecting to be trained and to go
out and to teach. And that was pretty typically the case. So that was certainly my expectation.
And as it turned out, midway, in my senior year, I had completed all my required courses and
there was a vacancy at Archbishop Molloy. There was a brother who left right at the end of
December, and they needed a teacher. And so, I went out midway in my senior year, and replaced
him as a math teacher at Molloy. And that was a pretty interesting early on experience. I
remember some kids talking to me after I got to know them about the first couple of days. And,
they said, you know, when you went to the board, typically somebody would write horizontally.
They said you were writing almost vertically. Everyone—I’m left-handed—and everything was
going up. We had to turn our head to read it <laugh>. And then another kid said, he was talking
about a question that he asked me one of those early days, and I said that, well, how was is my
answer? He said, it bore no resemblance to my question <laugh>. So, to say the least, I was a
little bit nervous in those early days.

GN:
00;21;28;26 - 00;21;34;18
All right. How long did you stay there? How long were you at Molloy?

WC:
00;21;34;20 - 00;22;06;08


William Carroll
35


I was at Malloy a year and a half. And I then went to Our Lady of Lourdes. And that was when
there were two different provinces, and I was in the province different from the one that taught at
Our Lady of Lourdes. But they needed somebody. And I was, I guess, loaned out or, maybe I was
shipped over on waivers, I’m not sure <laugh>.

GN:
00;22;06;08 - 00;22;22;24
Well see the divide of the province—the states—by 125th Street. So, if you were below 125th
Street you were with Saint Anne's and that group, and Saint Helena’s, and the other would be the
Mount, and that was the other group. So, that was how they were drawn.

WC:
00;22;22;25 - 00;22;23;17
Okay, that’s how it was divided.

GN:
00;22;23;19 - 00;22;31;29
Eventually it comes back together again, but that was, okay. Did you go on for a graduate
degree?

WC:
00;22;32;01 - 00;22;52;16


William Carroll
36


I did. I did, as a matter of fact, I—this is sort of interesting. While I'm at Molloy [pause], we, as
you well know, the sequence was you took vows for one year at a time, for five years, and then
typically, you took your final vows.

GN:

Right.

WC:

Well, I was at the end of my fifth year, and I wasn't quite sure.

GN:
00;22;56;02 - 00;22;56;25
Uh-huh <affirmative>.

WC:
00;22;56;27 - 00;23;19;10
So, there was an option to take a sixth year of temporary vows. So, I did the sixth year, and at the
end of that wound up leaving. But one of the--people will say to me, well, why did you leave?
What was what was the thing that—the most? Was it being able to date or not having money?
And I said, let me tell you a story. While I was at Molloy, the Brothers lived on the top floor
above three other floors, which were classrooms, etc., etc. And one night, having lived in
Queens, I got a phone call from my parents saying they were going to a movie nearby. It was a


William Carroll
37


Sunday. They call me in the morning, and they said, why don't you meet us tonight for a 7:30
movie? I said, great, I'm glad you call me early. I can prepare my classes. And so around 7:00, I
go to the elevator on the fourth floor to take it down to go with my parents who were going to
pick me up. I meet the brother in charge, Brother James Damian, and he says, where are you
going, Brother? And I said, well, I'm going to meet my parents to go to an early movie. He said,
well, tonight’s Sunday night, I said, I know that. He said, we prepare our classes on Sunday
night. And I said, well, I got an early call from my parents, and I prepared my classes this
morning and this afternoon. He said, well, we don't go out Sunday night. And I said, but I took
care of everything. I'm all set. I'm going to go to—he said, we don't go out on Sunday night. I
had to call my parents and say I can't go to the movie. I'm twenty-two, twenty-three years old,
and so that was one of the more—for me, obedience was ultimately the showstopper. So, I leave
Molloy, I go to Lourde's. And while I'm at Lourde's, I start to pursue a degree in guidance
counseling.

WC:
00;25;01;13 - 00;25;21;19
And I'm going down to Manhattan College for a master's in guidance. And at the time, the guy
who was the director of admissions here, Dave Flynn, he and I would ride down together, and we
would be going to classes. And I was fairly frustrated at this time based on—

GN:
00;25;21;19 - 00;25;21;28
Yes, yes.


William Carroll
38



WC:
00;25;22;00 - 00;25;27;10
Kind of the story I told. So, a guy from Molloy who, while I was there—Buddy Nolan?

GN:
00;25;27;12 - 00;25;29;22
Oh, yes.

WC:
00;25;29;24 - 00;25;43;34
He said, you know, you seem pretty frustrated and you're going down to the city. What you might
want to consider is going to Saint Helena's and talking to this guy who has taken degrees in
counseling, Phil Damian.

GN:
00;25;43;50 – 00;25;44;00
Uh-huh <affirmative>.

WC:
00;25;44;25 – 00;26;27;14
So, I would go down, go to classes in Manhattan, and then go over and talk to Phil Damian, and
trying to figure out where I'm going to go, what I'm going to do. A year passes. The next year, I
get assigned to Saint Helena’s. This is my third stop in my three and a half years of Marist


William Carroll
39


education as a Marist Brother and by the—and continued to see Phil—and by the end of that year
I decided--and that was my sixth year, my additional, temporary year—and I said, I'm done.

GN:

Yeah. I see.

WC:

And that was it.

GN:
00;26;17;18 - 00;27;00;16
I’m surprised with that story about Dennis Damian because, I knew him pretty well, the bingo
days at Saint Anne's and subsequent years at, I think he went to Saint Helena’s, but I'm not sure.
But anyway, I’m surprised but, obviously it affected you, you know, and you, I can understand
him taking that stance, except for the times that we were in, you know, I mean, the mentality
could have been that he was trying to correct you from being too loose about the seriousness of
education, etc.

WC:
00;27;00;18 - 00;27;10;29
When I had done my work. But on Friday nights and Saturday nights, the keg comes out, and I
remember--what was his name? Hopkins. Big guy.


William Carroll
40



GN:
00;27;11;03 - 00;27;12;01
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

WC:
00;27;12;01 - 00;27;12;23
You remember him?

GN:
00;27;12;29 - 00;27;15;14
I do, but I couldn't recall his name now.

WC:
00;27;15;16 - 00;27;25;21
Oh man, but he would, he would drink a quart of milk before hitting the beer tab. To coat his
stomach.

GN:
00;27;25;28 - 00;27;26;16
Really? Wow. Wow <laugh>.

WC:
00;27;26;16 - 00;27;31;03
It was an interesting little scenario <laugh>. The things you remember, right?


William Carroll
41



GN:
00;27;31;03 - 00;27;38;18
Okay. All right. When you leave the Brothers, what’s your next step?

WC:
00;27;38;21 - 00;27;59;03
I leave the Brothers. All right, so, what am I going to do now? Oh, I was a math teacher. And I
think probably while I'm teaching at Saint Helena's, I'm teaching geometry. This, again, is one of
the little stories, and a kid raises his hand and I say, he's going to ask me about that fourth step in
proving that theorem.

GN:

Yeah.

WC:
00;27;59;07 - 00;28;22;11
And he says, why do we have to learn this? And I, you know, since I—I never <laugh> felt I had
a good answer to that question. So why am I doing this? Why am I teaching this and teaching
religion when I had my own questions there? So, I decide not only am I going to leave the
Brothers, but I don't want to teach anymore. Well, it turns out that Phil Damien knew somebody
who worked for Catholic Guardian Society, which was a branch of New York Catholic Charities.



William Carroll
42


GN:
00;28;33;02 - 00;28;33;27
Yeah, okay.

WC:
00;28;34;01 - 00;28;42;06
So, he says, go talk to this guy. And I wind up getting a job down at Catholic Charities. So, I'm
there for—

GN:
00;28;42;10 - 00;28;43;09
Where in the city itself?

WC:
00;28;43;14 - 00;28;44;19
22nd Street.

GN:
00;28;44;22 - 00;28;45;27
Oh, yeah. Okay.

WC:
00;28;45;29 - 00;29;01;22


William Carroll
43


So, I'm there for a couple of years as a caseworker, and I'm kind of liking it. So, somebody says,
why don't you go to school? I had finished the master's in guidance counseling, but this is social
work now.

GN:
00;29;01;22 - 00;29;06;09
How about the math degree, did you ever take a degree in math?

WC:
00;29;06;12 - 00;29;09;19
I—undergrad, here, math.

GN:
00;29;09;19 - 00;29;10;04
Yeah.

WC:
00;29;10;04 - 00;29;12;14
Then guidance counseling at Manhattan.

GN:
00;29;12;21 - 00;29;13;07
Oh, okay, okay.



William Carroll
44


WC:
00;29;13;10 - 00;29;24;29
And then they had a program where you could, they would send you to school. And so, I went to
school for them at Fordham in the social work program.

GN:
00;29;25;07 - 00;29;26;07
Uh-huh <affirmative>.

WC:
00;29;26;10 - 00;29;41;20
And the understanding was they would send me to school for two years, and then I'd have a two-
year commitment to come back. But during the time we’re at school, and my plan now is I'm
going to go on and I'm going to be a psychotherapist.

GN:
00;29;41;26 - 00;29;42;21
Uh-huh <affirmative>.

WC:
00;29;42;23 - 00;31;16;00
But the Vietnam War occurs, and Kent State, and the shooting of the kids at Kent State. So, there
was probably a dozen of us from various branches of Catholic Charities going to Fordham. So,
we're very upset about what's going on politically. We decide that we want to get a meeting with
the head of Catholic Charities. Monsignor somebody, I don’t know. So, we meet with him


William Carroll
45


wanting the Catholic Charities to take a stand against the war. And he politely listened to us, but
that went nowhere. There was no change, no impact. So, for me it's, wow, do I really want to be a
therapist and work with people, or do I want to go into something more global, so to speak? So,
and I was, since they covered my education on a scholarship, I owed them two years. So, I
finished, I come back, and they say, well, we want you to do this kind of casework. And I said,
wait a minute. In school mid-year, I switched from being an individual counselor to the
community as the client, and I want to do that kind of work. And here are some ways I think it
would be relevant here. No, that's not what we want. We want you to do this. I said well—ehhh.
So, anyway, we had to work out an arrangement whereby I had to pay them back over time for
the education. And I moved on because they didn't want to use the skill set that I think I had
developed and so, we parted ways.

GN:
00;31;16;02 - 00;31;17;26
<Laugh>

WC:
00;31;17;28 - 00;31;53;29
And I went briefly and worked for a—Queens Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children.
Then got a job with New York City government, the addiction services agency of New York City.
And, having a math background, I worked in the budget department, and was in charge of
overseeing the New York City addiction treatment and prevention money that went to not for
profits in the area. Some of the big ones, Phoenix House, Odyssey, ( ), among others. So, I—


William Carroll
46



GN:
00;31;53;29 - 00;31;58;27
That’s a pretty big figure that you're dealing with, then. In terms of the budget.

WC:
00;31;59;01 - 00;32;02;28
Oh, yeah, we had some real money that we were giving out.

GN:
00;32;03;01 - 00;32;07;18
Right. Where are you living during this time? Are you at home? Or do you have your own
apartment?

WC:
00;32;07;18 - 00;32;19;10
I left the Brothers, briefly lived at home, then got an apartment in Queens, not too far from
Molloy. And I was sharing with Bill Ford. He and I were roommates together.

GN:
00;32;19;13 - 00;32;20;23
I see.

WC:
00;32;20;26 - 00;33;32;20


William Carroll
47


And then after some time, I wound up moving out of there and got another apartment on West
13th Street, and I was—that’s when I was going to Fordham graduate school. I was sharing an
apartment with another guy from--who was a student at Fordham in the social work program.
And so, after completing, let's see, or after working in addiction services, and seeing the political
nature by which some of the funds were being distributed, where some of the big players that I
mentioned before got money comfortably. Where some of the smaller community-based agencies
in the Bronx, or Brooklyn, Bed-Stuy weren't doing as well. I said, this isn't working for me. I
need to do something else. So, I see an ad in the paper for an organization in Poughkeepsie, New
York. And I know a little bit about Poughkeepsie. I went to college at Marist College <laugh>.
So, I apply for the position there as the assistant to the executive director.

GN:
00;33;32;22 - 00;33;35;07
For Outreach Family Services, what was it?

WC:
00;33;35;08 - 00;33;42;29
Oh, well this was rehab programs for people with disabilities. An agency that provided services
right here in Poughkeepsie.

GN:
00;33;43;00 - 00;33;47;11
Was the hospital still here? The state hospital?



William Carroll
48


WC:
00;33;47;13 - 00;34;33;08
Oh yes, the state hospital was still here, and the agency's office was in what is, had been the
Dutchess County Department of Mental Hygiene building, what was across from Saint Francis
Hospital. And it's still there, but now changed its focus. The agency is not there anymore. And
that building is now an early assessment center for people that the police pick up, and they're
behaving badly or whatever, they'll send them there. So, I got the job there, and a couple of years
later, the director left, and I was in the fortunate position of being able to replace him. And I
said—

GN:
00;34;33;10 - 00;34;35;18
About what year is this now?

WC:
00;34;35;19 - 00;34;49;29
I came there in 1976. He left in 1978, and I left there in 2016. So, I was there two years as his
assistant, and twenty-eight years as the CEO.

GN:
00;34;50;01 - 00;34;51;15
Wow, that's a long time.

WC:
00;34;51;15 - 00;34;54;06


William Carroll
49


That was a nice, nice run. Worth it.

GN:
00;34;54;09 - 00;35;09;05
Yeah. That’s—we’ve got, one question we didn't get to. What about the Vietnam War? Were you
ever in the draft category or were you older than…?

WC:
00;35;09;07 - 00;35;22;21
I was [pause] in Marist Prep and Marist College and was exempted because of the religious
pursuit, being in the Brothers.

GN:
00;35;22;21 - 00;35;24;11
Oh, I see, okay. All right.

WC:
00;35;24;11 - 00;35;25;27
So avoided the draft.

GN:
00;35;25;29 - 00;35;31;28
All right, let's go back to this last job that you had. You’re here for twenty-eight years—



William Carroll
50


WC:

Thirty years.

GN:

Thirty years, really? Give me a job description. What did you do?

WC:
00;35;41;01 - 00;36;02;25
Okay. We provided services to children--medical rehabilitation, physical, occupational speech
therapy. We had an educational program for kids who didn't fit into the typical school district.
These were kids who were severely or profoundly retarded. We had a--

GN:
00;36;02;27 - 00;36;08;16
Wait, where did you have the program. It was not in the same building that your office was?

WC:
00;36;08;18 - 00;37;37;01
Part of it—the--these children's programs, the outpatient clinic and the school were in the same
building. Then across town, off of route 44, we had a work center where adults with disabilities
would do various--we would take work from companies, assembly kinds of tasks, putting things
together on a subcontract basis. We had people there. We also had another day program for adults
who were less able than being able to do work, who would do other kinds of activities,


William Carroll
51


recreational, arts and crafts. And then we had a whole residential program where people coming
out of state facilities, not much, so much the state hospital. That was for people with mental
illness. We primarily dealt with people with mental retardation. But Wassaic. As Wassaic was
being wound down and closed, we had group homes that people would move into, or apartments.
We served probably about fifteen hundred to two thousand people on a yearly basis. When I left,
we had about four hundred staff and a $22 million budget. So, I was the overseer of the various
programs generating the funding, working with a board of directors, etc.

GN:
00;37;37;01 - 00;38;05;23
Where would you say--was it in your taking courses and, guidance, or mental health--where did
you learn this stuff? I mean, the ability to be able to take on the multiple challenges that you
describe, you know, the children and the adults, those with addictions and, you know, there's a
such an array of complications, it seems here.

WC:
00;38;05;26 - 00;39;10;06
Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Each of those was its own department with a department director.
What--the principal of the school would have a background in education, the director of the
clinic would be an occupational therapist. Somebody running the workshop would have a
vocational rehabilitation background. So, they all reported to me, and the math background--that
I got here at Marist--was ideal in terms of understanding the numbers and doing the budgeting.
And then the social work degree, the--both the guidance degree at Manhattan and the social work
degree at Fordham, gave me the feeling for people, the compassion, and the ability to balance


William Carroll
52


people's needs with the money that was available. And a sense of how to supervise people
effectively. And, not to micromanage them, but to give them responsibilities and hold them
accountable for what they were supposed to do. But let them do it the way they could best do it.

GN:
00;39;10;09 - 00;39;19;18
You mentioned you had a staff of about four hundred involved in this, how many of those did
you have to evaluate?

WC:
00;39;19;20 - 00;39;21;15
About ten.

GN:
00;39;21;18 - 00;39;24;03
Directors, really, of the institutions as it were.

WC:
00;39;24;04 - 00;39;27;17
Directors of the departments, the finance, human resources, etc.

GN:
00;39;27;17 - 00;40;08;16


William Carroll
53


I'm just kind of comparing it to a chairman here who has, and a dean of the school, it depends on,
you know--there are segmented areas that you are responsible for, and I can see how that would
work out in your case. Looking back, what were some of the major disappointments in this job
that you had? Would it be people? Would it be the state funding? Would it be, you know,
uncontrollable factors like the change in culture? And drugs availability and--

WC:
00;40;08;19 - 00;41;24;03
Well, we didn't do much with drugs. That wasn't our area. It was people with cognitive or
physical disabilities that we primarily took care of. Not drug dependent kind of people. Overall,
it was a great experience. We had, many years before, there was a New York State Department of
Mental Hygiene, and parents of people who were mentally retarded felt that their children were
not getting adequate care because they were lumped in with people with mental illness. So, they
politically were able to get the state to separate mental hygiene from mental retardation. And the
result of that was the funding streams for individuals with mental retardation were pretty solid
and pretty available. And they were also in the process of wanting to close the Wassaic’s of the
world, and there was money generally pretty available. So, we had pretty good funding streams.
We had good staff. The--I guess one of the issues was when people are coming out of
institutions, they have to live somewhere. So, we were opening group homes. They were not
always accepted with open arms, so to speak.

GN:
00;41;24;10 - 00;41;27;17
I’ve lived in areas where they were not well received. Yeah <laugh>.


William Carroll
54



WC:
00;41;27;18 - 00;41;28;03
Oh, it’s but--

GN:
00;41;28;03 - 00;41;30;14
Not in my neighborhood or my backyard <laugh>.

WC:
00;41;30;17 - 00;42;14;50
Exactly. So, I would have to go--the law required that before you could do this, if you identified
a particular house, you had to go before--you had to notify the municipality, and then they had to
notify abutting neighbors. So, there would be these forums where people would come, and we
would have to speak. So, I would go in anticipating that everything but pots and pans being
thrown at me was going to occur. So, I would be ready for lots of objections and try to just
calmly say, here's what we're going to do. But wait a minute, sir. We know what you're going to
do. It's a good thing, but that house is on the most dangerous curb, and cars speed by there like
nothing.

GN:

<Laugh>



William Carroll
55


WC:
00;42;14;27 - 00;42;17;14
And there's a little stream in the backyard—

GN:

They’ll drown.

WC:

And your people are going to drown. And the worst kids in the neighborhood, all the bullies live
on that street. And it was, it was so—

GN:

You talk of the familiarity of having been there <laugh>.

WC:
00;42;29;20 - 00;43;25;28
Yes, yes. Knowing the situation and it was interesting, and it was good. And then trying to get
people who were in these workshops jobs in real community settings. And going out and
soliciting people and say, look, I have somebody who could do that job who can help you in a
deli, make sandwiches, whatever it may be. And getting an employer who would be willing to
take a chance. And then when that worked out, these, let's say the deli owner was very cautious
and had the same attitude. I don't know about these people. And when it worked out, they were


William Carroll
56


so happy that they gave this person a chance. And then it changed their attitude. If a group home
was going to come in their neighborhood, now, they'd come and say, wait a minute, I have a
couple of these people. They work in my deli. They're good people. They do a good job.

GN:
00;43;26;01 - 00;43;34;11
Have you had a chance to send--or do you know of people coming to Marist? We've had a
number of people in the kitchen area.

WC:
00;43;34;12 - 00;43;59;09
Yes. That were from my agency. And they are still, the agency changed its name. It's now
Abilities First. But the people in there, I've been here for lunch a number of times. Don Kelly
would bring me over, and I'd say hello to people that I know, both staff and some of the clients of
the agency. It's been a good place for people to get real experience.

GN:
00;43;59;11 - 00;44;28;19
The expression ‘homeless’ is used quite freely. You see these people out, where I have no home. I
have no money and so on. And then in the wintertime, there’s these various appeals that are made
in the parishes for contributing to the homeless, putting them up for a night or three nights or
something like that. Is that part of your…?



William Carroll
57


WC:
00;44;28;22 - 00;45;13;09
That was not part of what I did in my job as executive director rehab. But I'm currently on the
board of Hudson River Housing, which is the Poughkeepsie based agency that provides services
for homeless people. Many churches, they have an overnight shelter which is not highly staffed,
and they'll appeal to churches. Can you send some people in and maybe bring food in, and
provide a meal for the people who are staying overnight, and then they'll go out the next day and
then another church might be represented the following night. And as you referred to, also
solicitations for contributions to help the cause was--is also part of that, initiative.

GN:
00;45;13;12 - 00;45;23;25
There’s a service in what used to be the Poughkeepsie high school, a food service where people
could go in there for an evening meal.

WC:
00;45;23;27 - 00;45;48;01
Dutchess Outreach operates the food center there, and they have, I believe they have both
lunches and dinners. And then, at the holiday time, the--Eileen Hickey, who used to be a
legislator, and her husband, Dan Hickey, they will provide Thanksgiving and Christmas, I think.
Patrice, the Patrice family has been active in that as well.

GN:
00;45;48;01 - 00;45;58;20


William Carroll
58


All right. Yeah. There’s a woman here, Amy Woods, is on our staff as alumni director. She's on a
board, one of those, I think it’s the Poughkeepsie--

WC:
00;45;58;22 - 00;45;59;18
Dutchess Outreach?

GN:
00;45;59;18 - 00;46;00;04
Outreach, yeah.

WC:
00;46;00;05 - 00;46;06;00
Okay. Could be. She's not on Hudson River Housing, so could well be that. And that's a terrific
agency.

GN:
00;46;06;02 - 00;46;07;08
Yeah.

WC:
00;46;07;10 - 00;46;12;20
I mean, shelter and food. Can you ask for more basic needs than those to be addressed?



William Carroll
59


GN:
00;46;12;23 - 00;46;27;05
Yeah, yeah. Numerically, what are the numbers would you say in the Poughkeepsie area, how
many people are involved--in need for, daily? Five hundred?

WC:
00;46;27;07 - 00;46;38;02
I don't know the number offhand, but the shelter can accommodate fifty or sixty people a night at
that particular location.

GN:
00;46;38;04 - 00;46;38;13
I see. Yeah.

WC:
00;46;38;13 - 00;46;57;03
And there are still other people, as you say, depending on the weather, some people are okay
staying outside and sleeping wherever they can find a spot on a bench. But in the cold weather,
it's a little bit more difficult. And so, they want to get an indoor place to stay that's safe.

GN:
00;46;57;05 - 00;47;08;27
What are the happiest moments of what you've done? What would you say the greatest successes
have been? The fact that you stay there for so long must have meant that it was satisfying for you
personally.


William Carroll
60



WC:
00;47;08;29 - 00;48;16;26
Absolutely. As you asked, what were the big problems? And I was thinking, we got funding, we
had good staff, we had supportive families. It was much more positive than anything else. I think
the overall biggest satisfaction would be, when you opened a group home after people at the
meeting opposed it, and then six months later, the next door neighbor is bringing cakes over to
the five or six women who moved into this house, who they thought were going to be ax
murderers and were fifty-year old, very friendly people, or the, a situation where we would have
a class of very disabled kids in Poughkeepsie or Hyde Park School District, and gradually some
of the typical kids would be coming over trying to be nice, and to share, and provide assistance
to the kids with disabilities. And, to see the--I think you and I did not likely grow up with a
disabled person next door—

GN:

Awareness of this.

WC:
00;48;16;50 – 48;55;24
Didn't go to school with, didn't have a job with. So today, some of our folks having been placed
in community jobs, living next door to people who are now exposed to them or in a school
setting where they said, sheesh, I had a kid in a disabled class right next door to me. They're
okay. If there's going to be a hearing for a home in my neighborhood, I'm certainly not opposed,


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and maybe I'll go and be supportive of it. So, I think enabling the exposure of people with
disabilities to educate other people that they're okay people themselves.

GN:
00;48;55;26 - 00;49;17;10
We have to get back to where we are, Marist. And, you have been a neighbor here for, well a
student, a graduate, and you've come back to the area. What is your perception of the place now?
Mine is how did this happen? I mean, when I consider it, it was a farm when I came here, you
know, we had pigs, we had cows, we had, you know.

WC:

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

GN:
00;49;17;10 - 00;49;59;24
And, and I look at the four new dormitories that just went up. I look at the library where we are
now. I look at the medical school across the street. I see twenty people applying for doctorates.
How did this happen? You know, I mean, what is your take on the place? And secondly, related
to that, you know--where--is it going in the right direction? Or is it maybe, just another advanced
institution for education? Is it, is there anything that you would see, that you'd like to say in those
terms?



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WC:
00;49;59;27 - 00;51;51;20
Well, I think as you already pointed out, it's gone from a pig farm to an incredibly effective
educational institution that I think provides quality education and tries to engage people in the
community, it does good things. I still come as a, I have season tickets to both the men's and
women's basketball games. So, I come regularly as a fan to the sporting events. I also have a
little part-time job at Adelphi school of social work, which is right in the old--right next to the
Mid-Hudson Regional Hospital. They have a building there where they do graduate work. And
so, I have a little bit of familiarity with the social work program here. And some people from
here go on to Adelphi. So, there's a nice connection there. The opening of the medical facility
that, I was on a tour there. It's outstanding. And training of, providing a doctorate in physical
therapy, providing credentials for a physician's assistant. All excellent. However, I--a couple of
things strike me. I still think this appears, presents itself, too much as a Catholic institution.
There's a chapel, which is, I guess, considered to be nonsectarian, but I still think, it's, I know—

GN:

They know there’s a Catholic chapel.

WC:

Yeah. And there is a facility here for Marist Brothers, as small as it may be, to be trained. So, I
don't think it's--



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GN:
00;51;51;23 - 00;51;52;19
Secular.

WC:
00;51;52;21 - 00;53;02;23
Yeah, I don't think it's nonsectarian enough. And I know there are various groups, and lots of
students of various backgrounds. But I still think it's a little, there's some balance between
maintaining your heritage and your history and truly opening yourself up. I also don't have a
sense that the school has been particularly successful at, lower income black and Hispanic
people. I think it's--except for the athletes. I, like I said, I go to the ball games, and I see lots of
black basketball male players, and football. I don't get a sense looking around, people walking
that there are lots of inner-city Poughkeepsie students or, like students from other where, I still
see it as a Long Island middle-class. And that's my perception. I don't know the data. I would like
to see it broaden its perspective. I understand that that's one of the initiatives of the new
president, to provide even greater diversity.

GN:
00;53;02;26 - 00;54;01;26
Yeah. another question, though, and I think, from the historical standpoint, you have spoken
about a group of you that still meet, long-time friends. What's the glue that keeps that thing
together? Is this kind of I mean, very few West Point-ers are in that same category or, you know,
I, for West Point, it's a nice place to be from. When I tell people really love, the association with
the institution per se, you know, and I was wondering, just kind of commenting. Now, you guys


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are separated by a long-time, distance, you've done this for a long time. You've been together for
sixty years, I suppose. You know, where is that magic?

WC:
00;54;01;29 - 00;55;00;26
I think the analogy West Point, Marist College. Former service members, former Marist
Brothers, the group that you're referring to, is not just Marist graduates. It's with people who
were Marist Brothers. That's the group. Much like people who have come back from war. I think
the experience that they share is difficult for other people to truly understand, and I think we
have some similarities there, that the life we led as Marist Brothers is unique and there's certain
bonding that other people can't fully understand. And so, the groups, Bill Ford, Jack Mann,
Donald Kelly, Dennis Hartnett, there's some the people that, you know, there's this—and it's
going down memory lane often enough. Do you remember so-and-so? Have you heard from this
one? And—

GN:
00;55;00;28 - 00;56;20;00
We have our own group. I mean, we're just ten years ahead of you maybe you know, but, in that
way, but memory lane is part of it, it’s your heritage, you know, it's what you know of, and are
familiar with, etc. Well, let me see where we are with this. Well, just four minutes to the hour
now <laugh>. Just—I mean just letting it flow has done this, has given me a good perspective of
what your take is on this place, your own career, what you’ve been able to do. But I think, you
know, you go back to your roots here, that your concern for other people, that's been part of your
marrow of your bones. You know, from the days when you stopped teaching math because you


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65


didn't know why you were teaching math, you know. I think that's part of why you learned to be
faithful to yourself, you know, that's part of it. Something we didn't touch? <laugh> Something
you want to add as a kind of farewell? [Pause] Let me ask you—or I—go ahead.

WC:
00;56;20;06 - 00;56;28;03
Well, I was going to--the new medical facility. A guy in the class behind me, Jerry Cuyler.

GN:
00;56;28;07 - 00;56;28;23
Yeah.

WC:
00;56;28;26 - 00;56;31;19
Who became a doctor.

GN:
00;56;31;21 - 00;56;32;00
Yeah.

WC:
00;56;32;05 - 00;57;37;27
And I ran across him a couple of years ago, and we were talking, and he made the comment that
he’d be a guy worth interviewing, that his Marist education--he was--when he took the medical


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boards, he couldn't believe how relatively easy it was. And he attributed it to his Marist
education. Being a doctor, he decided that, given his success, he wanted to do something for
Marist, who had helped him to be a doctor. So, he made a significant contribution to the new
facility. And one of these gatherings that he came to two years ago, he said, hey, you guys, come
on now, help me. So, I decided to help, nowhere near the level that he did. And, then I was--
received some follow up. And in speaking to the person that followed up with me, I said I would
be interested in getting more involved at Marist in maybe some kind of committee related to
some of the issues I raised about diversifying.

GN:

Yeah, yeah.

WC:
00;57;37;29 - 00;57;45;00
And [pause] let's say it never quite took the way.

GN:

Didn’t go anywhere.

WC:
00;57;48;00 – 00;58;01;00


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67


I got some follow up, but I thought the follow up was more oriented toward pursuing me
economically than pursuing me as a local player who could maybe contribute to the direction of
the institution.

GN:
00;58;01;09 - 00;58;17;24
Yeah. I would like you, I mean, I'll get to his name because I would like--I might have met him
when he was here for this homecoming. You know, if he came back for his sixtieth anniversary
or whatever it might have been. You know--

WC:
00;58;17;24 - 00;58;18;07
You mean Jerry Cuyler?

GN:
00;58;18;07 - 00;58;20;28
Yeah. I--

WC:
00;58;21;01 - 00;58;21;22
He's black.

GN:
00;58;21;23 - 00;58;22;21


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68


Oh, yes.

WC:
00;58;22;21 - 00;58;24;11
Yeah, he would be easily--

GN:
00;58;24;13 - 00;58;26;13
I did--I have talked to him.

WC:
00;58;26;13 - 00;58;28;03
Okay.

GN:
00;58;28;05 - 00;59;49;27
At that location. All right. That was the next point I was going to say, will you have some
nominees who would be interested in, adding to this list that I have? Many of them were
Marist—well, now I don’t know how many were Brothers and how many were just, either
graduates—some of the women graduates are on here. You know, some of the professors that we
had, Tom Casey and, you know, his wife, I remember is still here, you know, so, there it is. I
mean, it’s hundred people or more that I've done over this twelve-year period, you know. And
what I'm trying to do is just get some evidence of what people say was their take. How it
happened with, a lot of people would give Dennis Murray an awful lot of credit for the financial.


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But nobody ever came to his class. I mean, he was not a teacher. You didn't come here to learn
from him. He had the personality to be able to get a board of trustees who had money, who were
able to get other members, you know, to what to do with the fortunes, you know, and we’ve been
benefited by that. Okay, I'll close it now.

END OF INTERVIEW