Gus Nolan Oral History Part 3 Transcript
Media
Part of Gus Nolan Oral History Part 3
content
Interview with:
Gus Nolan
Marist College
Poughkeepsie, NY 12603
Transcribed by Ann Sandri
For the Marist College Archives and Special Collections
Transcript – Gus Nolan
Interviewee:
Gus Nolan
Interviewer:
Jan Stivers and Sue Lawrence
Location:
James A. Cannavino Library
Interview Date:
24 June 2022
Subject Headings:
Nolan, Gus
Marist Brothers-Marist College History
Marist College. English Department
Marist College. Communication Department
Marist College—Faculty
Summary:
In this interview Gus talks about the Oral History Project and its origins. He
discusses how it came to be, what its original purpose was and how it grew over
the past 20 plus years. Gus comments on the scope of the interviewees, and where
he thinks the project may go in the future.
Jan Stivers (
00:02
):
Today is Friday, June 24th, 2022. My name is Jan Stivers. I am here with our colleague Sue Lawrence.
And we are interviewing Heritage Professor Augustine Nolan, who has been the predominant force
responsible for the growth of the Marist College Oral History Project. The Oral History project is part of
the Marist College Library Archives and Special Collections. Over the last 20 years, the project has grown
to include Atlas Count 156 interviews, and at least 130 of these have been conducted by Gus himself is
the subject of two of those interviews, one in 2001 and another in 2018-19. This interview will differ
from those in that its focus is narrow. It will explore the origins growth and development of the oral
history project. There is no one better positioned to tell this story. Welcome and thank you Gus, for
agreeing to this interview.
Gus Nolan (
01:14
):
Thank you.
Jan Stivers (
01:16
):
So, tell us about the origins of the project.
Gus Nolan (
01:21
):
As best as I can remember, John Ansley arrived on the scene of Marist College, and he invited a number
of faculty to come and hear what his job was. He was going be director of Special Collections and
Archives and what that would include. And what he wanted it to include was the collection of interviews
from faculty and staff and administrators and students, about their experience at the college. And so, he
went on to say, what would evolve is a taping of the interview. And then he pointed out also that in the
taping, there are a number of things that could happen. You could erase sections, you could drop
sections out, you could, you know, move things, in a befitting way. Uh, a horn was flowing someplace.
You could have that removed from the dialogue. And so, I said that it seems to me Brian Desilets was
with me at the time, among some others. And he was the first to, I can be wrong about Brian, but there
was someone else besides myself. But then I saw a chance, "this is interesting, maybe I can do this?" So,
I kind of stepped in and said, yes, I would do it. And then the first candidate was a fellow called Peter
O'Keefe. And Peter O'Keefe was a professor that came to Marist because he was working in a high
school with my wife in New York City. He had just got his doctorate, and he was looking for a college
position. And Liz says to me, is there anything at Marist, so I said, yes, there is an opening now, maybe
he would be interested. And so he comes up and I believe Ed Cashin is who he met. And that was just
marriage at the first site, you know? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So he stayed on. And so, it took maybe
two or three interviews with him to get the Peter O'Keefe story, because I didn't know too much about
him. I didwant to know who he was, where he grew up. And the idea was we didn't want him confused
with another Peter O'Keefe, who might come along. So, we got the name of his wife when they got
married, you know, so there'd be no mistaking that this is the Peter O'Keefe that is speaking at this
occasion. Mm- Hmm. <affirmative>. So that was the beginning. And I really don't know who the second
one was. You could even look at the history there. Of course, I don't know if they're an alphabetical
order or historical.
Jan Stivers (
04:20
):
Well, can you tell me something about how the project was supported, other than willing volunteers to
do the work?
Gus Nolan (
04:32
):
You said it right there. I mean, the reward is itself, the reward of doing it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And
if it were to be that it could have been disaster. I mean, if I ran into somebody, like Sue Lawrence, who
would've given me difficulty, you see <laugh> <laugh>, I always say, forget about this, you know?
Jan Stivers (
04:53
):
What about support from, the Office of the Archives?
Gus Nolan (
05:00
):
Oh, John was very supportive. Yes. And at the beginning, I forget before, this is long before Ann Sandri
comes on, but there's one or two other people down there. And the archives was much wider operation
in those days. I spent a lot of time there with Linus Foy going through photos, identifying photos of past
events, Congressman who had come here, Senator who had come here, graduation speakers, identifying
photos and people in them, because in those days, pictures were taken and they were not carefully
labeled, you know? And so then you try to thought, when did this happen? You know? And so we had to
backtrack and find what we could on those things.
Jan Stivers (
05:49
):
So, it had its beginnings in this collection of information, this gathering of information. Yes. How did the
project evolve? Has it changed in focus or purpose since then?
Gus Nolan (
06:06
):
Well, one thing, the follow aspects of it is something else. There was John, and he had rules and
regulations. You had to wear gloves. If you were touching photos, you had to, you know, be careful of,
nothing was ever destroyed. You had to save even all pieces of paper and letters and stuff. So it was all
sacred to an archivist. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, you have to hang onto this stuff. Mm-Hmm.
<affirmative>. And so, he was in that category. And so, the other area that was quite free was gathering
new material such as the people who are retiring. And so, early on I was able to get, I just can kind of go
through this and see who were the first candidates, Mike Artega, these are probably alphabetical. Okay.
So, I need a historical one to get a, to get the,
Jan Stivers (
07:07
):
How did you decide who to interview?
Gus Nolan (
07:11
):
So, I, this is a solo project. If I like the person, I wonder. Yeah.
Jan Stivers (
07:17
):
<laugh>I was one of the later interviews, so <laugh>,
Gus Nolan (
07:21
):
Oh, countrar. But, it was pretty much, that comes back to all the tough question at the beginning. Oh,
what was the motivation and why did he do this? When you look at this list of 135 or 140 people, and
they're willing to spend an hour with you in this kind of thing, and an hour before they get here, thinking
about it, and making arrangements to come and clearing their calendar and they're doing that just on
your request, and you can't give them any money, any kind of reward. And they come happily doing it,
and at the end of it, they say, oh, this is good. I really like doing this and that. I mean, the vice president,
I forget his name now, but, he was <laugh>, he was an athlete who was a swimmer. I remember we
were swimming once in the pool, and Larry Sullivan was with me. And Larry wouldn't go in the pool
because he said, he's gonna copy my style. He said, I didn't want anybody, you know, so, so who is this
guy? I would have to look at the list, but he coming out says, that was really interesting, you know? Mm-
Hmm. <affirmative>. Well, we, because he was a vice president, and I was able to add some other
questions about finance and, you know, certification and various applications and contracts and things
that he was happy to talk about it. And I could ask nobody else about these things. Mm-Hmm.
<affirmative>, you know, so that was, so
Jan Stivers (
08:53
):
It was very rewarding to you to give people a chance to share and record what's important today. .
Gus Nolan (
09:00
):
It's so rewarding when they give you this time and energy, and so, you know, you're just so pleased by
their donation and sacrifice to do it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, It kind of gives you a little sense of pride
and this is worthwhile doing. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And the next one is even more important than
the one before, because it just seems to grow on itself, you know? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.
Jan Stivers (
09:26
):
So, you were using your contacts, contacts and your ability to convince people that this was a
worthwhile investment of their time. What obstacles did you encounter?
Gus Nolan (
09:42
):
The only real obstacle is the complexity of putting it together. It looks simple, calling somebody up, but
then clearing the schedule, their schedule, my schedule, the college schedule, and putting that in sync,
you know, in a convenient time when we'd not be interfering with people coming to the library, we
would not be interfering with people who had reserved rooms. You can't do this a week or two before
test week, you know, when the library is crowded with all these private rooms taken and groups getting
together. So, there are hidden limits when you can do it. So that would probably be the first, and
sometimes just getting up the energy to say, let's go do it, you know? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-
Hmm. <affirmative>. Although that's not a hard problem, in the early days, it's a little more difficult
problem as the years go on now. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.
Jan Stivers (
10:45
):
Sure. What surprised you?
Gus Nolan (
10:50
):
What surprised me, was their consistency of willing to cooperate.
Jan Stivers (
11:00
):
That's a wonderful one.
Gus Nolan (
11:02
):
Yeah. That they would continue to one after another, you know? And nobody gave you the grief that
they had to go. I don't think I was ever refused. If I was, I don't remember. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you
know, so, when you go knocking on the door and they got nothing to offer, but asking them for their
time, and they readily agree, of course, the hidden elephant in this is Marist you know, here's a chance
to tell Marist about your experience, and it'll be recorded. You know? And you know, they might say,
well, who am I to do this? You were here. You made a unique contribution. As we have experience in
some people in the recent, you know, they just are so thrilled with the opportunity to be able to
participate in this kind of activity.
Jan Stivers (
11:56
):
Gus, you began that statement by talking about the fact that you were surprised by people's willingness
to participate and to persist. Could you tell, use as an example what happened with our interview with
Brother John Klein?
Gus Nolan (
12:13
):
Oh, okay.
Jan Stivers (
12:15
):
Because there was a person, whose time is limited, who has huge demands on his time. Yeah. And he
was really willing to persist with us.
Gus Nolan (
12:24
):
Yeah. Well, there's two parts to that story. John Klein is a former student, <laugh>. So, uh, yeah,
Jan Stivers (
12:33
):
This IOUs out
Gus Nolan (
12:34
):
<laugh>. So the relationship goes back a long way. The other unfortunate thing about that, that I didn't
know until much later in life, is that I was the only one not to give him an A in his college career. <laugh>
You know, he was Summa Cum Laude and thank God he was a B or B plus, because he wouldn't even get
a Summa if my usual C plus came into play. So, and I was so embarrassed by that to find that out,
because I have, you know, particular genius to be able to evaluate. And over the years, he you know, he
proved himself to be an exceptional student. An exceptional brother, an exceptional leader, and
provincial, a member of the board. And so, in that sense, that was one of the key influences. The other
part was that this little family connection. My brother is a Marist Brother in Florida, and he had spoken
to my brother about a project that he is on, and that is writing the history of the Marist Brothers United
States, that the private, you know, he's interested in doing that for the Brothers. And so, along the way,
he wanted to come and see me about one of our schools, St. Ann's Academy, the closing of that, and the
opening of Bishop Molloy and the transfer at that time. Because I was there and I saw what happened.
And you know, <laugh> simple questions, asking the director one night, a Friday night after Bingo, the
school hall used for bingo for the missions, as it were. And after that, the brothers that worked Bingo
had a pizza and a beer. And so you would think by 11 o'clock things would be quiet. And well, that night,
it didn't. The next day I asked the director, when do you think they're gonna start taking down the
academy? This whole building? This? He says, I thought they started last night, <laugh>. You know, so
there's little, you know, I have tidbits about the history of being there when some of those things
happened, you know?
Jan Stivers (
14:55
):
So Brother John Klein wanted that from you?
Gus Nolan (
14:58
):
Well, yeah. Well, he didn't do it yet. I mean, it's, it is an example of, yes. I could put that into it. If he
wants it, this may not appeal to him because of the levity of which I'm, you know, kidding about this. But
nevertheless, Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But he is a genuine, Marist Brother, who really follows pretty
much the principles of doing good quietly. And the opportunity to get him to come that he was so
agreeable at the beginning. Yes. He'd like to come, and he would make time for us, you know? Yeah.
And even when we made the mistake of not recording it, you know, he was ready to come back the next
week, you know? And so he made time for us for the same reason. I think he loves Marist College. You
know
Jan Stivers (
15:48
):
Let me fill Sue in on that. We, brother John Klein was the provincial. He was head of the Marist Brothers
worldwide. Right. And then he's the only member of the board of trustees to have served two separate
terms. A long time.
Gus Nolan (
16:08
):
The provincial is the United States Province. Oh, wow. And then there's a, they're in 50 countries around
the world and the center for running all the Marist Brothers is in Rome. And so, John Klein was later
picked to come to Rome to be on the board over there, supervising the national, the international, you
know. So when he went to Rome, he had to leave the board because he was away for five years. Wow.
Okay. Yeah. And then when he comes back to the United States, Dennis Murray knocks on the door and
says, John, would you like to come back to the board? You know? And he and his generosity said, yes, I'll
be happy to do that. And so you can continue, you know,
Jan Stivers (
16:55
):
So, this is a man who's, this is an important person. We get him for this interview, and Gus gets him for
this interview. We begin and we do about an hour's worth, I think. Yeah. And Gus notices that the,
Gus Nolan (
17:14
):
The red light
Jan Stivers (
17:14
):
Recording is not, is not working. And, I'm just making sure ours is good. And the batteries had died. So,
this good man came back the following week and redid the whole thing. Yeah. It was so, a great example
of people's willingness to participate'
Gus Nolan (
17:35
):
Yeah. Right. And he's not the only one, of all people. Dr. Doherty was the other person this happened to.
I interviewed him for an hour down in John's office, and it was my fault not pressing the button. It was
not a dead machine. It was my not pressing the button. And so, when I went to him, I says, uh, doc, I
said, I have some bad news. I said, what do you want to do? Oh, okay. I said, yeah, but nothing can
change. It's gonna be the same as you had, you know, <laugh>. Okay.
Jan Stivers (
18:10
):
Well, my next question was about disappointments, but, I'm not getting any hint of any of them.
Gus Nolan (
18:18
):
Uh,...
Jan Stivers (
18:19
):
Were there some disappointments?
Gus Nolan (
18:21
):
Perhaps in my own self? I mean, one of the disappointments is my failure to see what you have brought
to the scene since namely, I should have invited, Barbara Zucerello to come with Lou, because she
played a part very much in Lou's administration here. I mean, she heard the stories when he came home
at night, and she encouraged him to come back for more as, as dean, you know, a professor and so on.
And I was thinking of all of the, the wives who might have been, you know, a helpful participant not to
interject and so on, except when appropriate, you know? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> to say something
like, you know, well, you went without a meal for a day and a half, you know, well, you had to go on this
trip. You know, you had a meeting with the real estate advisors, you know, and you were very
concerned. You had to rewrite your report. You know, all of those silent things. I never got a chance to
open up that part of it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I just didn't think of it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, if I
had to do it over, I would probably look at it again. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, because that, that would
be one. And then maybe without even thinking about it now, people who slip by who I didn't get. And,
you know, I don't know that, like Dick Flat, I don't think I ever got Dick Flat, which would've been
another side of the coin as it were, in terms of his view of Marist College. But, I would like to have an
honest, yes. <laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, there were other good guys in there that, I just didn't do
it. Left
Jan Stivers (
20:15
):
Left the scene before you could get to them.
Gus Nolan (
20:16
):
Right. And even now, as I look around campus, there is a, well, at the time, he was a young black fellow
working for Dennis Murray. I think his name was Ed. I think it was Ed Murray, but I'm not sure. And he's
still on campus? Or Desmond?
Jan Stivers (
20:32
):
Murray? Desmond.
Gus Nolan (
20:33
):
Desmond Murray. Murray. Desmond. Desmond. Right. Alright. I see him around. I don't know if he
works for us. Let's
Jan Stivers (
20:38
):
Let's get him, let's get him. Gus,
Gus Nolan (
20:40
):
He's still here. Yes. Okay. Yes.
Jan Stivers (
20:42
):
He's in career services, I think. Oh, yeah.
Gus Nolan (
20:44
):
Oh, well see. He would be somebody who, from the top, you know, well, worked with Dennis and, you
know, would give us from top down view about the running of the institution, you know, and those kind
of things. And then the other side of that coin, you know, I have talked to people who were secretaries
out there, Eileen Sico, you know, she gave me a whole insight about running the office for Dennis. You
know, I was asking, is it a 24 - 7 operation? And so on. I said, oh, no, no. You know, he has his vice
presidents that is refer to when he is on the road and all that kind of thing. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But
there are problems that come just sitting here. The example of the woman who kept calling, wanted to
get her daughter on campus. And she's saying, you know, well, I'm gonna call, I wanna speak to the
president. And she said, well, every time you call, you're going to get me. And the answer's gonna be the
same. And the answer is, there was no room for Jesus in the inn and there's no room for your daughter
on campus, <laugh>. You know,
Jan Stivers (
21:50
):
So, this is a good beginning, mom, <laugh>.
Gus Nolan (
21:53
):
So, I mean, these insights that you get a fit from the tough, you know, it just kind of rewards itself in
doing this thing.
Jan Stivers (
22:01
):
As you think back over these interviews, especially when we're contrasting and comparing, secretaries,
faculty members, senior administrators, are there any themes that seem to you consistent or that, I
shouldn't say themes, maybe threads that emerge across several of them?
Gus Nolan (
22:25
):
There's something about Marist. There's a love for the place, and it's not so much the buildings, you
know, it's pretty much the people in it. And, there's a constant, you know, willing to share a lot of things.
I mean, their wealth, John O'Shea and his brother, who put up the new Oche'Shea building, you know,
they gave several million dollars. And his only concern was part of the college was some of the electrical
work he did. But he was, he was treated well by the people he had to deal with. I had to work with him
in Esopus, you know, and building the pool over there, and he did the electrical work over there. But
when he saw the kids working as they did, you know, he was just taken by this institutional, whatever it
is that draws people to it, you know? And, that kind of feeling that, this, you know, John Ansley, you
know, talks the same thing. When he arrived on campus, people thought he was a student, you know,
and he was looking for the library, and that they brought him up. You know, he was just so taken by the
concern. And people have talked to me about the student character seems to rub on the others who
come and look. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>. There are some kids who come on this campus, and they don't
want any part of it because they see the kids that are here, and they don't wanna be like that. There's
others who, oh, can I come here? You mean, I could live here? And I, I could live in this valley with that,
with these guys. You know, there's an entirely different attraction, that draws them to it. And so, I would
just say there's a certain spirit that has been handed down, you know, from the beginning, the original
people who put up this place, you know, and their dedication to building a college <laugh>, which is part
of the thing here. It's so wacky. I mean, you know, to build a college in the Mid-Hudson Hudson Valley.
And Paul Ambrose was of mind that we'd college for Mid-Hudson, a, a college for Mid Hudson Valley,
and a lot of the younger kids could come here, and they wouldn't have to go to the big universities, you
know. But, you know, Dan Kirk and Linus Foy and John Malachi come along, and they, do an overview,
and they say, there aren't enough students to support a college here. I mean, if they were out getting
out of high school, why would they going to come here? We had no reputation, no name now, nothing
yet, you know? And so, Linus gets the idea, but we have five high schools in New York where there are
graduates who people know us and supposedly put up a dormitory, you know, and they could come and
live here. And the other little thing about this is that the dormitories make no money for you. You know,
they house them that money, the building is put up by the state, and the running of it is paid by the
state, and the income that comes, goes to the state, you know? So, it's a state operation, really. But you
get the tuition, you get a thousand students coming here, you know, so Linus, you know, saw this and
did it, for in order, you know, Sheahan first and Leo, then Champagnat, you know, those things going up.
So, I don't know where I'm going with this, but nevertheless, you know, it's, well,
Jan Stivers (
26:04
):
You were talking about the, a theme that that reaches across, and it is something about the Marist
spirit, something that draws...
Gus Nolan (
26:14
):
Yeah, that's right. It's from the high schools and again, you know, there students that I had in St. Ann's
Academy who came here, you know, and put up with George Summer for four years, you know,
<laugh>, you know, oh, there's another interview that never happened, because he, he wouldn't do it in
person. Send me the questions, and I'll send you the answers. You know, <laugh>, so George isn't a
quote where they call an oral interview, you know, <laugh>, So, this guy, Bill Moran was his name, in
particular, George liked him, and he was a good student, and eventually come and lives with George. So,
in the family for, he's a student on campus when he graduates. He's a Renaissance man. George told him
that. So he goes down to IBM, and he said, they said, what can you do? He says, I can do anything. I'm a
Renaissance man, <laugh>. I know, I know. All things that, like what you can do for us. He couldn't do
anything for them. So for the next two years, he teaches at Lourdes, you know? Yeah. And then he goes
on and gets a degree in accounting, you know, and makes a million dollars and contributes to the
business department here, you know? So, that's the famous Bill Moran that you know, he liked the
place. because he liked St. Ann's, he liked the Marist spirit, and he came up and so on and so, and he
liked
Jan Stivers (
27:55
):
George Summer. Who knew? <Laugh>.
Gus Nolan (
27:58
):
Yeah. Which, it took a lot of love, <laugh>, <laugh>. Even Ann found that out after one divorce and going
back with him again. And then <laugh> almost divorced him again. You know, uh,
Jan Stivers (
28:13
):
Oh Gus, let me ask you, what you see as the strengths of the collection.
Gus Nolan (
28:22
):
Some day somebody is going to come on this campus and say what I've just said. How did this happen?
You know, what the heck happened here? Anyway, you know, there's no Vassar who gave a billion
dollars at the beginning. You know, there's no, John McCann that gave it. No. You know, there's a group
of guys that came from Canada, and they bought a property here, you know, and they had 35 acres, and
then they bought, the other half had over a hundred acres. And they farmed it, and they put up a
training house. And at the beginning, they were French speaking. So even after they opened the school
in New York, and they were getting candidates to come, because they liked the Marist spirit, they had to
go to Canada to get training where they spoke French, where the kids eventually lived, because they
couldn't grasp that. So the brothers had realized they had to open a training center in the USA, and that
became here. And then out of that, you know, it began to grow and to develop. And they graduated
from high school. And it turned out they were all pretty smart guys, average or above average and they
decided, well, maybe we could begin to form what they call a normal school. A normal school is where
you go and learn the norms of what you teach in elementary and secondary school. And so we opened a
normal school here in 1926. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And from 1926 to 1929, it's just a little normal
school. Okay? And finally, in 1929, we get an agreement with Fordham University, that we could have
two years of college here, and that they would supervise the learning and so on. They would visit, and
then the student, when they leave, we'd go to Fordham and finish their degree at Fordham. And that
followed with another investment of people leaving here and going to the Catholic University of
America, where they went on to get advanced degrees. And some people went down there like Richard
LaPietra and Brian Desolits, and the university wanted to keep them. They didn't want them to come
back to Marist to teach. They wanted to teach there, you know. And so, they came back and Paul
Ambrose decided in 1946/ 47, to apply for a four-year liberal arts college. And he did that with a
typewriter and carbon paper. He had no secretary and two fingers. And he typed the application for
getting a normal school, a four year college. And lo and behold, it came through. We had a temporary,
diploma until 1947 or 48. And I was here the afternoon. The news came that we finally got a permanent
charter. Well, Paul Ambrose, went wild. If we had wine, we would've celebrated, you know? But, all we
had what they call was, elephant something or other <laugh>. It was very liquid orange drink, you know.
And it was good though, <laugh> <laugh>. So that was, that was kind of the celebration that we had.
And there was cider,Yeah. We did have some cider I must admit. So, uh, so
Jan Stivers (
32:07
):
You're hoping that, well, that a strength of the collection is that this story can be told. You've got a lot of
different people telling different parts of it.
Gus Nolan (
32:20
):
Yeah. Somebody who would have the patience to go through listening to a number of things. Things will
come outta there that I haven't seen or heard. They're there, but I was not listening for it. And
somebody else would say, you know what? There's something about this place, about the basics. You
know? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And even such things as of grading, you know, grading had to be rather
severe.
Jan Stivers (
32:48
):
<laugh> You might've been the only one who believes that according to Dr. <crosstalk>.
Gus Nolan (
32:52
):
Well Yeah. And I, myself, you know, profited, by that, I, you know, I didn't graduate Cum Laude. I should
have because I'm very smart. Did I tell you? ? Yeah<laugh>? Yeah. Buth, it was purely an accidental thing
that I missed by one or two points, you know, because I I had a French teacher, or I, three years of
French, after which I had a dictation, and I had to translate something that the president had took all of
France, and I translated the President of Gaul. I didn't realize that de Gaulle was a name. You know, this
is the brightness of my French awareness, you know? And I did not get an honor degree for my French
<laugh>. But you know, they were kind to me. They let me go through anyway, you know? And as it
turns out, you know finally in my senior year, we were 20/21. I was third in the graduating class, you
know. But when my first year in high school, I was third in the class, in Espopus of 20 some odd students.
Wow. In the interim, I went from being third to about 18th, you know, third bottom. I had bad years, if I
can say that. You know, I'm not normally very bright, you know, I gotta work a little bit for it. But so, and
I know that, and my brother has keeps reminding me, I'm humble and I have reason to be humble.
<laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Jan Stivers (
34:27
):
Oh, oh, wow. Because was there anything else you wanted to talk about related to the project, related
to the oral history interviews, the concepts, the future of it?
Gus Nolan (
34:41
):
Well that last point, I just don't know, you know, how deep it has to be to find somebody to come on
and do a study of oh, something like, you know, communication majors at Marist, and see and look at
the range of people that we had and how they moved on and became significant in the sports world,
you know, and how they were announcing sports or whatever it was, you know, or people in, people
like, Roger Norton and what he has done in terms of technology and computer and that whole area
there. You know, I have interviewed him, but he doesn't make a big point of it, you know? He just
remembers the day that I criticized him, and where he talked about how well he had made out in college
and the rewards that he had gotten in his research and the salary and so on. And I had the nerve to
stand up and say, Roger, maybe you could share some of the rewards with us over here in
communications. You know, who having had these. Well, he thought it was funny at the beginning, then
he was so mad. And I went and I apologized to him. I sent him a letter, and then they appeared in his
door, you know? And we really had a nice, you know, he forgave me, you know, it goes <laugh>, you
know, absolve me of all my sins. And you know, because you know, the other part of Roger is that he's
from Tyngsboro, well, not Tyngsboro the little town next to Tyngsboro, Massachusetts, but name
escapes me, but there's a small little village there, you know, and he's from there Chelmsford. Mm-
Hmm. <affirmative>. He's from Chelmsford, Massachusetts, you know, and it's a small little town. And
he talks about his, he went into the service, but he went to the service on a school bus, something like
that. He was like 18, and he is in there for like six months, and he's discharged. He was too young to get
into the military. It was a time of the Vietnam War or something. And he wanted to volunteer, and he
volunteered and said goodbye to his girlfriend and all that at 18. He married a since, and they've been
living, and they have two kids. And I remember him talking to me. They, they're advanced. One of them
was in Japan, and the one in Japan, and the one in states, they would watch television together on some
setup that he arranged where they could watch a movie. You know, they're interesting little stories that
are all tied up in this Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, that's what I mean by somebody could find a
place, a kind of an area to concentrate on, you know, physics here, you know, or biology or psychology.
There are areas where, you know, some good things have been done, kept under the cover. I had heard
that Hugh Turley, when he was here, had made some discoveries, you know, another interesting story.
He got his doctorate before he finished his thesis. They liked him so much to afford him. They gave him,
and he had to finish the thesis and was not signed off yet before, you know, but he was a sophisticate
guy. I mean, everybody loved him, and he had a smile, he had a gentle manner. And he was smart, not
lazy, but he wasn't very quick on getting things done. So, he is another one of these guys who's done
great things, but we've kept it quiet, you know, don't anybody know that was hidden and unknown to
the world. Right.
Jan Stivers (
38:44
):
It wasn't Hugh Turley who did the Science of Man program.
Gus Nolan (
38:48
):
No. Was it? No. Yeah. Xavier Ryan. Xavier Ryan.
Jan Stivers (
38:51
):
Yeah. But Hugh Turley, I remember meeting him, him once here.
Gus Nolan (
38:56
):
Yeah. He was a biologist.
Jan Stivers (
38:58
):
Okay.
Gus Nolan (
38:58
):
Yeah. And he did some work on cancer research or something that I heard about, but I never heard
anything becoming of it, you know? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But, and
then Xavier Ryan is a whole other story, I think, okay.
Jan Stivers (
39:16
):
That might be for Brother John Klein's book, the History of the Marist Brothers in the United States,
Gus Nolan (
39:21
):
Or something else. Are we gonna be doing ,we're going to be doing Ted Prenting next interview for 20
years, you know? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I have some things about Ted Prenting, and again,
looking over the years that you're hear, I can't find it. Who on the faculty, who are the outstanding
people that you came across in your tenure here? You know, and I'm sure, you know, I suggest people
like Lou Zuccarello, you know, LaPietra, you know, I say people who have, you know, and then Ryan in
the science, he would appreciate that. And so, those kinds of people. But then, how about the struggle
we have between the liberal arts program and how to make a living and how to live, you know, how to
read and read and understand philosophy and so on, or how to go out and make a buck, you know? And
so, the struggle is there, and as we go on, and the pool of students get smaller, and the expense to go to
college remains pretty high. I'm not sure if people are gonna, like, learning how to live is the reason I'm
going to college. I want to get my money back, you know? And so it's gonna be a hard struggle to do
that. And Ted is really in the middle of that, because he is really in the business world, and he is really
pushing the advanced degrees there. And on the other hand, he's very much aware of his own life story,
is that he gave up money at IBM to come here. And the only way we made it up was to pay him for the
summer that he was working on the computers. You know? I mean, these are fabulous stories that I
think should be told, but he wouldn't want told, you know? I mean, he, let's not that let that get out,
you know?
Jan Stivers (
41:24
):
As we're coming to the end of our, our time, you often ask interviewees as a wrap up question, you say,
what was the glue that kept you at Marist all these years? So I wanna ask you, what was the glue that
kept you working on these interviews for over 20 years?
Gus Nolan (
41:46
):
Always the money. <laugh>
Jan Stivers (
41:47
):
<laugh>. Well, not personal experience. So, I know that's not true, <laugh>. Yeah. Nothing compares.
Gus Nolan (
41:54
):
No. But, but things that we've talked about. I mean, where can you go where you'd find a place, you
know, that, even now, I mean, for some reason I'm welcomed by all these people. But I mean, I can go
over to advancement now, you know? You know, or I can go to the registrar's office, or I can go to the
finance office, you know, and not because I'm a retired professor and so on. Some don't even know who
I am. You know, I've been here for 40 years, you don't know who you know. That's right. They've been
here three weeks, you know, or even three years. And they don't know, you know. But there's a certain,
you know, spirit of acceptance and doing good quietly and being genuine
Jan Stivers (
42:42
):
Sense of community,
Gus Nolan (
42:44
):
A sense of community. That's a nice way of putting it. Yeah. That, I think has been part of this operation
from its beginning, you know? And it's, I hope we never lose it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I'm
fortunate enough to know just now, I only found out yesterday, but that same spirit, I dunno if you read
the graduation speech of the President, but in the graduation speech, the president, he, the title is
Humility <laugh>. And he says, you may find this strange that I'm talking to you about humility,
especially me who appointed myself to give you the speech. You know, <laugh>, there's a kind of a little
kickback there, you know, but he talks about the, you know, the spirit of the Marist Brothers have
founded this place with the do good, quietly do good, but don't take credit for it. You know, step out of
the way. Let others, you know, claim whatever they want for it. That you just keep doing good, quietly.
He has given a quarter million dollars to the college, $250,000. And it's designated not for a building, but
not for a statute. It's dedicated to students who come and don't have diversity. Students who don't have
the wherewithal to get in. There's a financial thing, and they, they can draw from his funds to enter
Marist and stay here. And then depending on their own dedication and work and so on, things will take
care of themselves, you know, in
Jan Stivers (
44:22
):
Order to make Marist a more diverse and inclusive community.
Gus Nolan (
44:26
):
Yeah. Yeah. And to, I mean, that's, in a sense, that's what started this whole thing. Linus, you know,
never raised the tuition. That's why we were so poor. I mean, John Klein talks about we are very
vulnerable. We nearly went under a few times because, you know, Linus never raised the tuition, the
use of the labs. They came up here, IBM people, and I got this from the highest authorities, when they
were, they were using the labs in the summer because they didn't have them down there for whatever
they were doing. And we recommended a price. Oh, brother, be realistic. Now, we'll give you more than
that. In other words, they, we never charged even IBM with the use of the place what it was worth. We,
well, you know, we don't really need that much. We only need this to keep it. No, you can make some
money here and use it someplace else. You know, we've learned sense how to do that, you know? Mm-
Hmm. <affirmative>, we do now take grants and seek them. And rightly so, because you really can't
afford a place like this without some outside help. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And the other interesting
thing that I learned is that amazingly, people like to be asked people who have it, you know, they don't
want to just sit there and say, oh, you need some money, I'll give it to you. If you knock on the door and
say, look, we have a project, you know, we're wondering if you'd be willing to help us, you know, more
than half the time, if you rate, you know where you're going to begin with. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>,
they will agree to some support, you know, if you
Jan Stivers (
46:09
):
Make a good match.
Gus Nolan (
46:10
):
Yeah. You, if they see it's not wasted money. It's not good money going after bad. Mm-Hmm.
<affirmative>, which might be the case then, United Way or, we won't go down that route today. I
know. No. Okay. We'll tell you about that later Sue.
Jan Stivers (
46:28
):
Gus, is there, you know, we're creating a record here of your involvement with this project. Is there
anything else you want to include in that record?
Gus Nolan (
46:39
):
Yes. Get more people like yourself and Sue to be willing to listen, to ask people to come and to tell their
stories. I mean, we do maybe one a week, you know, why don't we do three a week? You know, of
course, it would take a lot of time because as I said, you know, putting it together is not easy. First you
gotta find the people who, you know, I wouldn't say worthy, or they would honor, but, people who have
significance, you know, thing to make and didn't just hang around here, you know, but were dedicated
in their own way to the place. And, you know, make it a meaningful interview for them and put it in the
archives and let it rest until somebody comes along and says, oh, this is interesting. Let's see what they
did in art. Like, something like fashion design. That's a whole other area I never even touched, you know,
which has really opened up Marist to this nation, you know? So, it just, stories just keep coming out.
Yeah. Shut up,
Jan Stivers (
47:49
):
<laugh>. I'm making a note. We should do something with fashion. We should. Absolutely. Yeah. Well,
would you like the last word?
Gus Nolan (
48:03
):
No, I, so you, sit here and some of this, what's the, he's absolutely crazy. You, or, you know, it's what's
your first impression?
Jan Stivers (
48:17
):
Of this job?
Gus Nolan (
48:18
):
Yeah.
Jan Stivers (
48:19
):
Shall we turn this off? Gus, thank you very, very, very much. Not only for this interview, but for the 21
years.
Gus Nolan (
48:27
):
Oh, you're very welcome.
Jan Stivers (
48:28
):
Well, maybe 80 years <laugh>. That preceded it.
Gus Nolan (
48:32
):
Put the check in the envelope. Yeah. <laugh>,
Jan Stivers (
48:35
):
This is Marist.
Gus Nolan (
48:36
):
<laugh>. Yeah. Right.
Gus Nolan
Poughkeepsie, NY 12603
Transcribed by Ann Sandri
For the Marist College Archives and Special Collections
Subject Headings: Nolan, Gus
Marist Brothers-Marist College History
Gus Nolan
Marist College
Poughkeepsie, NY 12603
Transcribed by Ann Sandri
For the Marist College Archives and Special Collections
Transcript – Gus Nolan
Interviewee:
Gus Nolan
Interviewer:
Jan Stivers and Sue Lawrence
Location:
James A. Cannavino Library
Interview Date:
24 June 2022
Subject Headings:
Nolan, Gus
Marist Brothers-Marist College History
Marist College. English Department
Marist College. Communication Department
Marist College—Faculty
Summary:
In this interview Gus talks about the Oral History Project and its origins. He
discusses how it came to be, what its original purpose was and how it grew over
the past 20 plus years. Gus comments on the scope of the interviewees, and where
he thinks the project may go in the future.
Jan Stivers (
00:02
):
Today is Friday, June 24th, 2022. My name is Jan Stivers. I am here with our colleague Sue Lawrence.
And we are interviewing Heritage Professor Augustine Nolan, who has been the predominant force
responsible for the growth of the Marist College Oral History Project. The Oral History project is part of
the Marist College Library Archives and Special Collections. Over the last 20 years, the project has grown
to include Atlas Count 156 interviews, and at least 130 of these have been conducted by Gus himself is
the subject of two of those interviews, one in 2001 and another in 2018-19. This interview will differ
from those in that its focus is narrow. It will explore the origins growth and development of the oral
history project. There is no one better positioned to tell this story. Welcome and thank you Gus, for
agreeing to this interview.
Gus Nolan (
01:14
):
Thank you.
Jan Stivers (
01:16
):
So, tell us about the origins of the project.
Gus Nolan (
01:21
):
As best as I can remember, John Ansley arrived on the scene of Marist College, and he invited a number
of faculty to come and hear what his job was. He was going be director of Special Collections and
Archives and what that would include. And what he wanted it to include was the collection of interviews
from faculty and staff and administrators and students, about their experience at the college. And so, he
went on to say, what would evolve is a taping of the interview. And then he pointed out also that in the
taping, there are a number of things that could happen. You could erase sections, you could drop
sections out, you could, you know, move things, in a befitting way. Uh, a horn was flowing someplace.
You could have that removed from the dialogue. And so, I said that it seems to me Brian Desilets was
with me at the time, among some others. And he was the first to, I can be wrong about Brian, but there
was someone else besides myself. But then I saw a chance, "this is interesting, maybe I can do this?" So,
I kind of stepped in and said, yes, I would do it. And then the first candidate was a fellow called Peter
O'Keefe. And Peter O'Keefe was a professor that came to Marist because he was working in a high
school with my wife in New York City. He had just got his doctorate, and he was looking for a college
position. And Liz says to me, is there anything at Marist, so I said, yes, there is an opening now, maybe
he would be interested. And so he comes up and I believe Ed Cashin is who he met. And that was just
marriage at the first site, you know? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So he stayed on. And so, it took maybe
two or three interviews with him to get the Peter O'Keefe story, because I didn't know too much about
him. I didwant to know who he was, where he grew up. And the idea was we didn't want him confused
with another Peter O'Keefe, who might come along. So, we got the name of his wife when they got
married, you know, so there'd be no mistaking that this is the Peter O'Keefe that is speaking at this
occasion. Mm- Hmm. <affirmative>. So that was the beginning. And I really don't know who the second
one was. You could even look at the history there. Of course, I don't know if they're an alphabetical
order or historical.
Jan Stivers (
04:20
):
Well, can you tell me something about how the project was supported, other than willing volunteers to
do the work?
Gus Nolan (
04:32
):
You said it right there. I mean, the reward is itself, the reward of doing it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And
if it were to be that it could have been disaster. I mean, if I ran into somebody, like Sue Lawrence, who
would've given me difficulty, you see <laugh> <laugh>, I always say, forget about this, you know?
Jan Stivers (
04:53
):
What about support from, the Office of the Archives?
Gus Nolan (
05:00
):
Oh, John was very supportive. Yes. And at the beginning, I forget before, this is long before Ann Sandri
comes on, but there's one or two other people down there. And the archives was much wider operation
in those days. I spent a lot of time there with Linus Foy going through photos, identifying photos of past
events, Congressman who had come here, Senator who had come here, graduation speakers, identifying
photos and people in them, because in those days, pictures were taken and they were not carefully
labeled, you know? And so then you try to thought, when did this happen? You know? And so we had to
backtrack and find what we could on those things.
Jan Stivers (
05:49
):
So, it had its beginnings in this collection of information, this gathering of information. Yes. How did the
project evolve? Has it changed in focus or purpose since then?
Gus Nolan (
06:06
):
Well, one thing, the follow aspects of it is something else. There was John, and he had rules and
regulations. You had to wear gloves. If you were touching photos, you had to, you know, be careful of,
nothing was ever destroyed. You had to save even all pieces of paper and letters and stuff. So it was all
sacred to an archivist. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, you have to hang onto this stuff. Mm-Hmm.
<affirmative>. And so, he was in that category. And so, the other area that was quite free was gathering
new material such as the people who are retiring. And so, early on I was able to get, I just can kind of go
through this and see who were the first candidates, Mike Artega, these are probably alphabetical. Okay.
So, I need a historical one to get a, to get the,
Jan Stivers (
07:07
):
How did you decide who to interview?
Gus Nolan (
07:11
):
So, I, this is a solo project. If I like the person, I wonder. Yeah.
Jan Stivers (
07:17
):
<laugh>I was one of the later interviews, so <laugh>,
Gus Nolan (
07:21
):
Oh, countrar. But, it was pretty much, that comes back to all the tough question at the beginning. Oh,
what was the motivation and why did he do this? When you look at this list of 135 or 140 people, and
they're willing to spend an hour with you in this kind of thing, and an hour before they get here, thinking
about it, and making arrangements to come and clearing their calendar and they're doing that just on
your request, and you can't give them any money, any kind of reward. And they come happily doing it,
and at the end of it, they say, oh, this is good. I really like doing this and that. I mean, the vice president,
I forget his name now, but, he was <laugh>, he was an athlete who was a swimmer. I remember we
were swimming once in the pool, and Larry Sullivan was with me. And Larry wouldn't go in the pool
because he said, he's gonna copy my style. He said, I didn't want anybody, you know, so, so who is this
guy? I would have to look at the list, but he coming out says, that was really interesting, you know? Mm-
Hmm. <affirmative>. Well, we, because he was a vice president, and I was able to add some other
questions about finance and, you know, certification and various applications and contracts and things
that he was happy to talk about it. And I could ask nobody else about these things. Mm-Hmm.
<affirmative>, you know, so that was, so
Jan Stivers (
08:53
):
It was very rewarding to you to give people a chance to share and record what's important today. .
Gus Nolan (
09:00
):
It's so rewarding when they give you this time and energy, and so, you know, you're just so pleased by
their donation and sacrifice to do it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, It kind of gives you a little sense of pride
and this is worthwhile doing. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And the next one is even more important than
the one before, because it just seems to grow on itself, you know? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.
Jan Stivers (
09:26
):
So, you were using your contacts, contacts and your ability to convince people that this was a
worthwhile investment of their time. What obstacles did you encounter?
Gus Nolan (
09:42
):
The only real obstacle is the complexity of putting it together. It looks simple, calling somebody up, but
then clearing the schedule, their schedule, my schedule, the college schedule, and putting that in sync,
you know, in a convenient time when we'd not be interfering with people coming to the library, we
would not be interfering with people who had reserved rooms. You can't do this a week or two before
test week, you know, when the library is crowded with all these private rooms taken and groups getting
together. So, there are hidden limits when you can do it. So that would probably be the first, and
sometimes just getting up the energy to say, let's go do it, you know? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-
Hmm. <affirmative>. Although that's not a hard problem, in the early days, it's a little more difficult
problem as the years go on now. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.
Jan Stivers (
10:45
):
Sure. What surprised you?
Gus Nolan (
10:50
):
What surprised me, was their consistency of willing to cooperate.
Jan Stivers (
11:00
):
That's a wonderful one.
Gus Nolan (
11:02
):
Yeah. That they would continue to one after another, you know? And nobody gave you the grief that
they had to go. I don't think I was ever refused. If I was, I don't remember. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you
know, so, when you go knocking on the door and they got nothing to offer, but asking them for their
time, and they readily agree, of course, the hidden elephant in this is Marist you know, here's a chance
to tell Marist about your experience, and it'll be recorded. You know? And you know, they might say,
well, who am I to do this? You were here. You made a unique contribution. As we have experience in
some people in the recent, you know, they just are so thrilled with the opportunity to be able to
participate in this kind of activity.
Jan Stivers (
11:56
):
Gus, you began that statement by talking about the fact that you were surprised by people's willingness
to participate and to persist. Could you tell, use as an example what happened with our interview with
Brother John Klein?
Gus Nolan (
12:13
):
Oh, okay.
Jan Stivers (
12:15
):
Because there was a person, whose time is limited, who has huge demands on his time. Yeah. And he
was really willing to persist with us.
Gus Nolan (
12:24
):
Yeah. Well, there's two parts to that story. John Klein is a former student, <laugh>. So, uh, yeah,
Jan Stivers (
12:33
):
This IOUs out
Gus Nolan (
12:34
):
<laugh>. So the relationship goes back a long way. The other unfortunate thing about that, that I didn't
know until much later in life, is that I was the only one not to give him an A in his college career. <laugh>
You know, he was Summa Cum Laude and thank God he was a B or B plus, because he wouldn't even get
a Summa if my usual C plus came into play. So, and I was so embarrassed by that to find that out,
because I have, you know, particular genius to be able to evaluate. And over the years, he you know, he
proved himself to be an exceptional student. An exceptional brother, an exceptional leader, and
provincial, a member of the board. And so, in that sense, that was one of the key influences. The other
part was that this little family connection. My brother is a Marist Brother in Florida, and he had spoken
to my brother about a project that he is on, and that is writing the history of the Marist Brothers United
States, that the private, you know, he's interested in doing that for the Brothers. And so, along the way,
he wanted to come and see me about one of our schools, St. Ann's Academy, the closing of that, and the
opening of Bishop Molloy and the transfer at that time. Because I was there and I saw what happened.
And you know, <laugh> simple questions, asking the director one night, a Friday night after Bingo, the
school hall used for bingo for the missions, as it were. And after that, the brothers that worked Bingo
had a pizza and a beer. And so you would think by 11 o'clock things would be quiet. And well, that night,
it didn't. The next day I asked the director, when do you think they're gonna start taking down the
academy? This whole building? This? He says, I thought they started last night, <laugh>. You know, so
there's little, you know, I have tidbits about the history of being there when some of those things
happened, you know?
Jan Stivers (
14:55
):
So Brother John Klein wanted that from you?
Gus Nolan (
14:58
):
Well, yeah. Well, he didn't do it yet. I mean, it's, it is an example of, yes. I could put that into it. If he
wants it, this may not appeal to him because of the levity of which I'm, you know, kidding about this. But
nevertheless, Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But he is a genuine, Marist Brother, who really follows pretty
much the principles of doing good quietly. And the opportunity to get him to come that he was so
agreeable at the beginning. Yes. He'd like to come, and he would make time for us, you know? Yeah.
And even when we made the mistake of not recording it, you know, he was ready to come back the next
week, you know? And so he made time for us for the same reason. I think he loves Marist College. You
know
Jan Stivers (
15:48
):
Let me fill Sue in on that. We, brother John Klein was the provincial. He was head of the Marist Brothers
worldwide. Right. And then he's the only member of the board of trustees to have served two separate
terms. A long time.
Gus Nolan (
16:08
):
The provincial is the United States Province. Oh, wow. And then there's a, they're in 50 countries around
the world and the center for running all the Marist Brothers is in Rome. And so, John Klein was later
picked to come to Rome to be on the board over there, supervising the national, the international, you
know. So when he went to Rome, he had to leave the board because he was away for five years. Wow.
Okay. Yeah. And then when he comes back to the United States, Dennis Murray knocks on the door and
says, John, would you like to come back to the board? You know? And he and his generosity said, yes, I'll
be happy to do that. And so you can continue, you know,
Jan Stivers (
16:55
):
So, this is a man who's, this is an important person. We get him for this interview, and Gus gets him for
this interview. We begin and we do about an hour's worth, I think. Yeah. And Gus notices that the,
Gus Nolan (
17:14
):
The red light
Jan Stivers (
17:14
):
Recording is not, is not working. And, I'm just making sure ours is good. And the batteries had died. So,
this good man came back the following week and redid the whole thing. Yeah. It was so, a great example
of people's willingness to participate'
Gus Nolan (
17:35
):
Yeah. Right. And he's not the only one, of all people. Dr. Doherty was the other person this happened to.
I interviewed him for an hour down in John's office, and it was my fault not pressing the button. It was
not a dead machine. It was my not pressing the button. And so, when I went to him, I says, uh, doc, I
said, I have some bad news. I said, what do you want to do? Oh, okay. I said, yeah, but nothing can
change. It's gonna be the same as you had, you know, <laugh>. Okay.
Jan Stivers (
18:10
):
Well, my next question was about disappointments, but, I'm not getting any hint of any of them.
Gus Nolan (
18:18
):
Uh,...
Jan Stivers (
18:19
):
Were there some disappointments?
Gus Nolan (
18:21
):
Perhaps in my own self? I mean, one of the disappointments is my failure to see what you have brought
to the scene since namely, I should have invited, Barbara Zucerello to come with Lou, because she
played a part very much in Lou's administration here. I mean, she heard the stories when he came home
at night, and she encouraged him to come back for more as, as dean, you know, a professor and so on.
And I was thinking of all of the, the wives who might have been, you know, a helpful participant not to
interject and so on, except when appropriate, you know? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> to say something
like, you know, well, you went without a meal for a day and a half, you know, well, you had to go on this
trip. You know, you had a meeting with the real estate advisors, you know, and you were very
concerned. You had to rewrite your report. You know, all of those silent things. I never got a chance to
open up that part of it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I just didn't think of it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, if I
had to do it over, I would probably look at it again. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, because that, that would
be one. And then maybe without even thinking about it now, people who slip by who I didn't get. And,
you know, I don't know that, like Dick Flat, I don't think I ever got Dick Flat, which would've been
another side of the coin as it were, in terms of his view of Marist College. But, I would like to have an
honest, yes. <laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, there were other good guys in there that, I just didn't do
it. Left
Jan Stivers (
20:15
):
Left the scene before you could get to them.
Gus Nolan (
20:16
):
Right. And even now, as I look around campus, there is a, well, at the time, he was a young black fellow
working for Dennis Murray. I think his name was Ed. I think it was Ed Murray, but I'm not sure. And he's
still on campus? Or Desmond?
Jan Stivers (
20:32
):
Murray? Desmond.
Gus Nolan (
20:33
):
Desmond Murray. Murray. Desmond. Desmond. Right. Alright. I see him around. I don't know if he
works for us. Let's
Jan Stivers (
20:38
):
Let's get him, let's get him. Gus,
Gus Nolan (
20:40
):
He's still here. Yes. Okay. Yes.
Jan Stivers (
20:42
):
He's in career services, I think. Oh, yeah.
Gus Nolan (
20:44
):
Oh, well see. He would be somebody who, from the top, you know, well, worked with Dennis and, you
know, would give us from top down view about the running of the institution, you know, and those kind
of things. And then the other side of that coin, you know, I have talked to people who were secretaries
out there, Eileen Sico, you know, she gave me a whole insight about running the office for Dennis. You
know, I was asking, is it a 24 - 7 operation? And so on. I said, oh, no, no. You know, he has his vice
presidents that is refer to when he is on the road and all that kind of thing. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But
there are problems that come just sitting here. The example of the woman who kept calling, wanted to
get her daughter on campus. And she's saying, you know, well, I'm gonna call, I wanna speak to the
president. And she said, well, every time you call, you're going to get me. And the answer's gonna be the
same. And the answer is, there was no room for Jesus in the inn and there's no room for your daughter
on campus, <laugh>. You know,
Jan Stivers (
21:50
):
So, this is a good beginning, mom, <laugh>.
Gus Nolan (
21:53
):
So, I mean, these insights that you get a fit from the tough, you know, it just kind of rewards itself in
doing this thing.
Jan Stivers (
22:01
):
As you think back over these interviews, especially when we're contrasting and comparing, secretaries,
faculty members, senior administrators, are there any themes that seem to you consistent or that, I
shouldn't say themes, maybe threads that emerge across several of them?
Gus Nolan (
22:25
):
There's something about Marist. There's a love for the place, and it's not so much the buildings, you
know, it's pretty much the people in it. And, there's a constant, you know, willing to share a lot of things.
I mean, their wealth, John O'Shea and his brother, who put up the new Oche'Shea building, you know,
they gave several million dollars. And his only concern was part of the college was some of the electrical
work he did. But he was, he was treated well by the people he had to deal with. I had to work with him
in Esopus, you know, and building the pool over there, and he did the electrical work over there. But
when he saw the kids working as they did, you know, he was just taken by this institutional, whatever it
is that draws people to it, you know? And, that kind of feeling that, this, you know, John Ansley, you
know, talks the same thing. When he arrived on campus, people thought he was a student, you know,
and he was looking for the library, and that they brought him up. You know, he was just so taken by the
concern. And people have talked to me about the student character seems to rub on the others who
come and look. Mm-Hmm, <affirmative>. There are some kids who come on this campus, and they don't
want any part of it because they see the kids that are here, and they don't wanna be like that. There's
others who, oh, can I come here? You mean, I could live here? And I, I could live in this valley with that,
with these guys. You know, there's an entirely different attraction, that draws them to it. And so, I would
just say there's a certain spirit that has been handed down, you know, from the beginning, the original
people who put up this place, you know, and their dedication to building a college <laugh>, which is part
of the thing here. It's so wacky. I mean, you know, to build a college in the Mid-Hudson Hudson Valley.
And Paul Ambrose was of mind that we'd college for Mid-Hudson, a, a college for Mid Hudson Valley,
and a lot of the younger kids could come here, and they wouldn't have to go to the big universities, you
know. But, you know, Dan Kirk and Linus Foy and John Malachi come along, and they, do an overview,
and they say, there aren't enough students to support a college here. I mean, if they were out getting
out of high school, why would they going to come here? We had no reputation, no name now, nothing
yet, you know? And so, Linus gets the idea, but we have five high schools in New York where there are
graduates who people know us and supposedly put up a dormitory, you know, and they could come and
live here. And the other little thing about this is that the dormitories make no money for you. You know,
they house them that money, the building is put up by the state, and the running of it is paid by the
state, and the income that comes, goes to the state, you know? So, it's a state operation, really. But you
get the tuition, you get a thousand students coming here, you know, so Linus, you know, saw this and
did it, for in order, you know, Sheahan first and Leo, then Champagnat, you know, those things going up.
So, I don't know where I'm going with this, but nevertheless, you know, it's, well,
Jan Stivers (
26:04
):
You were talking about the, a theme that that reaches across, and it is something about the Marist
spirit, something that draws...
Gus Nolan (
26:14
):
Yeah, that's right. It's from the high schools and again, you know, there students that I had in St. Ann's
Academy who came here, you know, and put up with George Summer for four years, you know,
<laugh>, you know, oh, there's another interview that never happened, because he, he wouldn't do it in
person. Send me the questions, and I'll send you the answers. You know, <laugh>, so George isn't a
quote where they call an oral interview, you know, <laugh>, So, this guy, Bill Moran was his name, in
particular, George liked him, and he was a good student, and eventually come and lives with George. So,
in the family for, he's a student on campus when he graduates. He's a Renaissance man. George told him
that. So he goes down to IBM, and he said, they said, what can you do? He says, I can do anything. I'm a
Renaissance man, <laugh>. I know, I know. All things that, like what you can do for us. He couldn't do
anything for them. So for the next two years, he teaches at Lourdes, you know? Yeah. And then he goes
on and gets a degree in accounting, you know, and makes a million dollars and contributes to the
business department here, you know? So, that's the famous Bill Moran that you know, he liked the
place. because he liked St. Ann's, he liked the Marist spirit, and he came up and so on and so, and he
liked
Jan Stivers (
27:55
):
George Summer. Who knew? <Laugh>.
Gus Nolan (
27:58
):
Yeah. Which, it took a lot of love, <laugh>, <laugh>. Even Ann found that out after one divorce and going
back with him again. And then <laugh> almost divorced him again. You know, uh,
Jan Stivers (
28:13
):
Oh Gus, let me ask you, what you see as the strengths of the collection.
Gus Nolan (
28:22
):
Some day somebody is going to come on this campus and say what I've just said. How did this happen?
You know, what the heck happened here? Anyway, you know, there's no Vassar who gave a billion
dollars at the beginning. You know, there's no, John McCann that gave it. No. You know, there's a group
of guys that came from Canada, and they bought a property here, you know, and they had 35 acres, and
then they bought, the other half had over a hundred acres. And they farmed it, and they put up a
training house. And at the beginning, they were French speaking. So even after they opened the school
in New York, and they were getting candidates to come, because they liked the Marist spirit, they had to
go to Canada to get training where they spoke French, where the kids eventually lived, because they
couldn't grasp that. So the brothers had realized they had to open a training center in the USA, and that
became here. And then out of that, you know, it began to grow and to develop. And they graduated
from high school. And it turned out they were all pretty smart guys, average or above average and they
decided, well, maybe we could begin to form what they call a normal school. A normal school is where
you go and learn the norms of what you teach in elementary and secondary school. And so we opened a
normal school here in 1926. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And from 1926 to 1929, it's just a little normal
school. Okay? And finally, in 1929, we get an agreement with Fordham University, that we could have
two years of college here, and that they would supervise the learning and so on. They would visit, and
then the student, when they leave, we'd go to Fordham and finish their degree at Fordham. And that
followed with another investment of people leaving here and going to the Catholic University of
America, where they went on to get advanced degrees. And some people went down there like Richard
LaPietra and Brian Desolits, and the university wanted to keep them. They didn't want them to come
back to Marist to teach. They wanted to teach there, you know. And so, they came back and Paul
Ambrose decided in 1946/ 47, to apply for a four-year liberal arts college. And he did that with a
typewriter and carbon paper. He had no secretary and two fingers. And he typed the application for
getting a normal school, a four year college. And lo and behold, it came through. We had a temporary,
diploma until 1947 or 48. And I was here the afternoon. The news came that we finally got a permanent
charter. Well, Paul Ambrose, went wild. If we had wine, we would've celebrated, you know? But, all we
had what they call was, elephant something or other <laugh>. It was very liquid orange drink, you know.
And it was good though, <laugh> <laugh>. So that was, that was kind of the celebration that we had.
And there was cider,Yeah. We did have some cider I must admit. So, uh, so
Jan Stivers (
32:07
):
You're hoping that, well, that a strength of the collection is that this story can be told. You've got a lot of
different people telling different parts of it.
Gus Nolan (
32:20
):
Yeah. Somebody who would have the patience to go through listening to a number of things. Things will
come outta there that I haven't seen or heard. They're there, but I was not listening for it. And
somebody else would say, you know what? There's something about this place, about the basics. You
know? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And even such things as of grading, you know, grading had to be rather
severe.
Jan Stivers (
32:48
):
<laugh> You might've been the only one who believes that according to Dr. <crosstalk>.
Gus Nolan (
32:52
):
Well Yeah. And I, myself, you know, profited, by that, I, you know, I didn't graduate Cum Laude. I should
have because I'm very smart. Did I tell you? ? Yeah<laugh>? Yeah. Buth, it was purely an accidental thing
that I missed by one or two points, you know, because I I had a French teacher, or I, three years of
French, after which I had a dictation, and I had to translate something that the president had took all of
France, and I translated the President of Gaul. I didn't realize that de Gaulle was a name. You know, this
is the brightness of my French awareness, you know? And I did not get an honor degree for my French
<laugh>. But you know, they were kind to me. They let me go through anyway, you know? And as it
turns out, you know finally in my senior year, we were 20/21. I was third in the graduating class, you
know. But when my first year in high school, I was third in the class, in Espopus of 20 some odd students.
Wow. In the interim, I went from being third to about 18th, you know, third bottom. I had bad years, if I
can say that. You know, I'm not normally very bright, you know, I gotta work a little bit for it. But so, and
I know that, and my brother has keeps reminding me, I'm humble and I have reason to be humble.
<laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Jan Stivers (
34:27
):
Oh, oh, wow. Because was there anything else you wanted to talk about related to the project, related
to the oral history interviews, the concepts, the future of it?
Gus Nolan (
34:41
):
Well that last point, I just don't know, you know, how deep it has to be to find somebody to come on
and do a study of oh, something like, you know, communication majors at Marist, and see and look at
the range of people that we had and how they moved on and became significant in the sports world,
you know, and how they were announcing sports or whatever it was, you know, or people in, people
like, Roger Norton and what he has done in terms of technology and computer and that whole area
there. You know, I have interviewed him, but he doesn't make a big point of it, you know? He just
remembers the day that I criticized him, and where he talked about how well he had made out in college
and the rewards that he had gotten in his research and the salary and so on. And I had the nerve to
stand up and say, Roger, maybe you could share some of the rewards with us over here in
communications. You know, who having had these. Well, he thought it was funny at the beginning, then
he was so mad. And I went and I apologized to him. I sent him a letter, and then they appeared in his
door, you know? And we really had a nice, you know, he forgave me, you know, it goes <laugh>, you
know, absolve me of all my sins. And you know, because you know, the other part of Roger is that he's
from Tyngsboro, well, not Tyngsboro the little town next to Tyngsboro, Massachusetts, but name
escapes me, but there's a small little village there, you know, and he's from there Chelmsford. Mm-
Hmm. <affirmative>. He's from Chelmsford, Massachusetts, you know, and it's a small little town. And
he talks about his, he went into the service, but he went to the service on a school bus, something like
that. He was like 18, and he is in there for like six months, and he's discharged. He was too young to get
into the military. It was a time of the Vietnam War or something. And he wanted to volunteer, and he
volunteered and said goodbye to his girlfriend and all that at 18. He married a since, and they've been
living, and they have two kids. And I remember him talking to me. They, they're advanced. One of them
was in Japan, and the one in Japan, and the one in states, they would watch television together on some
setup that he arranged where they could watch a movie. You know, they're interesting little stories that
are all tied up in this Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, you know, that's what I mean by somebody could find a
place, a kind of an area to concentrate on, you know, physics here, you know, or biology or psychology.
There are areas where, you know, some good things have been done, kept under the cover. I had heard
that Hugh Turley, when he was here, had made some discoveries, you know, another interesting story.
He got his doctorate before he finished his thesis. They liked him so much to afford him. They gave him,
and he had to finish the thesis and was not signed off yet before, you know, but he was a sophisticate
guy. I mean, everybody loved him, and he had a smile, he had a gentle manner. And he was smart, not
lazy, but he wasn't very quick on getting things done. So, he is another one of these guys who's done
great things, but we've kept it quiet, you know, don't anybody know that was hidden and unknown to
the world. Right.
Jan Stivers (
38:44
):
It wasn't Hugh Turley who did the Science of Man program.
Gus Nolan (
38:48
):
No. Was it? No. Yeah. Xavier Ryan. Xavier Ryan.
Jan Stivers (
38:51
):
Yeah. But Hugh Turley, I remember meeting him, him once here.
Gus Nolan (
38:56
):
Yeah. He was a biologist.
Jan Stivers (
38:58
):
Okay.
Gus Nolan (
38:58
):
Yeah. And he did some work on cancer research or something that I heard about, but I never heard
anything becoming of it, you know? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> and Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But, and
then Xavier Ryan is a whole other story, I think, okay.
Jan Stivers (
39:16
):
That might be for Brother John Klein's book, the History of the Marist Brothers in the United States,
Gus Nolan (
39:21
):
Or something else. Are we gonna be doing ,we're going to be doing Ted Prenting next interview for 20
years, you know? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I have some things about Ted Prenting, and again,
looking over the years that you're hear, I can't find it. Who on the faculty, who are the outstanding
people that you came across in your tenure here? You know, and I'm sure, you know, I suggest people
like Lou Zuccarello, you know, LaPietra, you know, I say people who have, you know, and then Ryan in
the science, he would appreciate that. And so, those kinds of people. But then, how about the struggle
we have between the liberal arts program and how to make a living and how to live, you know, how to
read and read and understand philosophy and so on, or how to go out and make a buck, you know? And
so, the struggle is there, and as we go on, and the pool of students get smaller, and the expense to go to
college remains pretty high. I'm not sure if people are gonna, like, learning how to live is the reason I'm
going to college. I want to get my money back, you know? And so it's gonna be a hard struggle to do
that. And Ted is really in the middle of that, because he is really in the business world, and he is really
pushing the advanced degrees there. And on the other hand, he's very much aware of his own life story,
is that he gave up money at IBM to come here. And the only way we made it up was to pay him for the
summer that he was working on the computers. You know? I mean, these are fabulous stories that I
think should be told, but he wouldn't want told, you know? I mean, he, let's not that let that get out,
you know?
Jan Stivers (
41:24
):
As we're coming to the end of our, our time, you often ask interviewees as a wrap up question, you say,
what was the glue that kept you at Marist all these years? So I wanna ask you, what was the glue that
kept you working on these interviews for over 20 years?
Gus Nolan (
41:46
):
Always the money. <laugh>
Jan Stivers (
41:47
):
<laugh>. Well, not personal experience. So, I know that's not true, <laugh>. Yeah. Nothing compares.
Gus Nolan (
41:54
):
No. But, but things that we've talked about. I mean, where can you go where you'd find a place, you
know, that, even now, I mean, for some reason I'm welcomed by all these people. But I mean, I can go
over to advancement now, you know? You know, or I can go to the registrar's office, or I can go to the
finance office, you know, and not because I'm a retired professor and so on. Some don't even know who
I am. You know, I've been here for 40 years, you don't know who you know. That's right. They've been
here three weeks, you know, or even three years. And they don't know, you know. But there's a certain,
you know, spirit of acceptance and doing good quietly and being genuine
Jan Stivers (
42:42
):
Sense of community,
Gus Nolan (
42:44
):
A sense of community. That's a nice way of putting it. Yeah. That, I think has been part of this operation
from its beginning, you know? And it's, I hope we never lose it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I'm
fortunate enough to know just now, I only found out yesterday, but that same spirit, I dunno if you read
the graduation speech of the President, but in the graduation speech, the president, he, the title is
Humility <laugh>. And he says, you may find this strange that I'm talking to you about humility,
especially me who appointed myself to give you the speech. You know, <laugh>, there's a kind of a little
kickback there, you know, but he talks about the, you know, the spirit of the Marist Brothers have
founded this place with the do good, quietly do good, but don't take credit for it. You know, step out of
the way. Let others, you know, claim whatever they want for it. That you just keep doing good, quietly.
He has given a quarter million dollars to the college, $250,000. And it's designated not for a building, but
not for a statute. It's dedicated to students who come and don't have diversity. Students who don't have
the wherewithal to get in. There's a financial thing, and they, they can draw from his funds to enter
Marist and stay here. And then depending on their own dedication and work and so on, things will take
care of themselves, you know, in
Jan Stivers (
44:22
):
Order to make Marist a more diverse and inclusive community.
Gus Nolan (
44:26
):
Yeah. Yeah. And to, I mean, that's, in a sense, that's what started this whole thing. Linus, you know,
never raised the tuition. That's why we were so poor. I mean, John Klein talks about we are very
vulnerable. We nearly went under a few times because, you know, Linus never raised the tuition, the
use of the labs. They came up here, IBM people, and I got this from the highest authorities, when they
were, they were using the labs in the summer because they didn't have them down there for whatever
they were doing. And we recommended a price. Oh, brother, be realistic. Now, we'll give you more than
that. In other words, they, we never charged even IBM with the use of the place what it was worth. We,
well, you know, we don't really need that much. We only need this to keep it. No, you can make some
money here and use it someplace else. You know, we've learned sense how to do that, you know? Mm-
Hmm. <affirmative>, we do now take grants and seek them. And rightly so, because you really can't
afford a place like this without some outside help. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And the other interesting
thing that I learned is that amazingly, people like to be asked people who have it, you know, they don't
want to just sit there and say, oh, you need some money, I'll give it to you. If you knock on the door and
say, look, we have a project, you know, we're wondering if you'd be willing to help us, you know, more
than half the time, if you rate, you know where you're going to begin with. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>,
they will agree to some support, you know, if you
Jan Stivers (
46:09
):
Make a good match.
Gus Nolan (
46:10
):
Yeah. You, if they see it's not wasted money. It's not good money going after bad. Mm-Hmm.
<affirmative>, which might be the case then, United Way or, we won't go down that route today. I
know. No. Okay. We'll tell you about that later Sue.
Jan Stivers (
46:28
):
Gus, is there, you know, we're creating a record here of your involvement with this project. Is there
anything else you want to include in that record?
Gus Nolan (
46:39
):
Yes. Get more people like yourself and Sue to be willing to listen, to ask people to come and to tell their
stories. I mean, we do maybe one a week, you know, why don't we do three a week? You know, of
course, it would take a lot of time because as I said, you know, putting it together is not easy. First you
gotta find the people who, you know, I wouldn't say worthy, or they would honor, but, people who have
significance, you know, thing to make and didn't just hang around here, you know, but were dedicated
in their own way to the place. And, you know, make it a meaningful interview for them and put it in the
archives and let it rest until somebody comes along and says, oh, this is interesting. Let's see what they
did in art. Like, something like fashion design. That's a whole other area I never even touched, you know,
which has really opened up Marist to this nation, you know? So, it just, stories just keep coming out.
Yeah. Shut up,
Jan Stivers (
47:49
):
<laugh>. I'm making a note. We should do something with fashion. We should. Absolutely. Yeah. Well,
would you like the last word?
Gus Nolan (
48:03
):
No, I, so you, sit here and some of this, what's the, he's absolutely crazy. You, or, you know, it's what's
your first impression?
Jan Stivers (
48:17
):
Of this job?
Gus Nolan (
48:18
):
Yeah.
Jan Stivers (
48:19
):
Shall we turn this off? Gus, thank you very, very, very much. Not only for this interview, but for the 21
years.
Gus Nolan (
48:27
):
Oh, you're very welcome.
Jan Stivers (
48:28
):
Well, maybe 80 years <laugh>. That preceded it.
Gus Nolan (
48:32
):
Put the check in the envelope. Yeah. <laugh>,
Jan Stivers (
48:35
):
This is Marist.
Gus Nolan (
48:36
):
<laugh>. Yeah. Right.
Gus Nolan
Poughkeepsie, NY 12603
Transcribed by Ann Sandri
For the Marist College Archives and Special Collections
Subject Headings: Nolan, Gus
Marist Brothers-Marist College History