Interview with: Harold Williams
Marist College
Poughkeepsie, NY
Transcribed by Lola-Dillon Cahill
For the Marist College Archives and Special Collections













Harold Williams
2

Interviewee:
Harold Williams
Interviewers:
Gus Nolan and Jan Stivers

Interview Date:
6 December 2022
Location:
James A. Cannavino Library
Topic:
In this interview, Gus Nolan and Jan Stivers interview Harry Williams about his whole life and
how Marist has played a part in getting him connected to all of his jobs and family.

Subject Headings:
Marist College Alumni
Marist College History (Poughkeepsie, NY)
School of Computer Science
Marist/IBM joint-study
Summary:
In this interview, Gus Nolan and Jan Stivers interview Harry Williams about his childhood,
decision to attend Marist College, his experiences at Marist in science and mathematics as the school of
computer science was developing, and his ongoing connections with the school. They also discuss the
development of technology over the past several decades, how student and faculty life has changed as a
result, and the direction Harry Williams hopes the school will go in the future.








Harold Williams
3

00;00;00;10 - 00;00;04;15
JS
…Record. And Gus is going to do our introduction.

00;00;04;17 - 00;00;11;17
GN
Yes. Today is December…

00;00;11;19 - 00;00;12;07
HW
Sixth.

JS
Sixth.

00;00;12;07 - 00;00;49;06
GN
Sixth. Tuesday. And we have the honor and privilege of interviewing Harold Williams for our archives
project. All right, let me just outline quickly what we like to do, and then we’ll take a long time doing it


Harold Williams
4

<laugh>. The first is that it comes like in four parts. Early years, then growing up, high school, etc., then
Marist, and then the crystal ball. Where we go.

HW
<Laugh>.

00;00;49;09 - 00;01;17;01
GN
Okay, so those are kind of the four parts that we look at. So, that's an overview, kind of a thumbnail
description, of where were you born in America. you know, or, etc. We'll start and I'll interrupt if I have
something to say or I want you to say something. Okay so, where were you born and when? No—not
when—where were you born? <Laugh>

00;01;17;03 - 00;02;02;20
HW
<Laugh> I was born in Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania. It was in the late 50s. I mean, that's a [pause], my
family has been in the Philadelphia area since the early 1600s. So, it’s—yeah. One of my ancestors came
aboard as an indentured servant on a small, what they called a catch, and he settled there on a farm, and
ended up, you know, establishing himself and built a whole, a farmhouse with a farm of about a hundred
acres. And so it's, you know, we still go back there. I don't have anybody, any cousins any longer living
real close. But, my grandmother for years, up until <laugh>, well, she passed away, 2007.



Harold Williams
5

00;02;22;23 - 00;02;23;26
JS
Wow.

00;02;23;28 - 00;02;25;21
HW
Yeah, she lived to be 105.

00;02;25;29 - 00;02;28;16
GN
Oh, wow.

00;02;28;19 - 00;02;53;18
HW
She got all of the cousins. So, I know and have met and interacted with, on Thanksgiving, my second
cousins. I mean, we had a family reunion on the Friday afterwards. There were usually fifty or more
people there. And in fact, we did a smaller set this past Thanksgiving. So, you know, so family has been—

00;02;53;18 - 00;02;56;01
GN


Harold Williams
6

How huge of a family, how many were there—

HW
I have three sisters.

GN
You have three sisters.

HW
Yeah, three sisters.

GN
So, there were four of you growing up.

HW
There were four of us growing up.

GN
I did the math right there <laugh>.



Harold Williams
7

00;03;06;18 - 00;04;01;12
HW
<Laugh> My father was a Presbyterian minister. And so, he, I mean, I was in—I was already born when
he went to seminary. He went to seminary at the time in Chester, PA, which is right there just to the
southern part of Philadelphia. You know, he went to seminary at Crozer seminary. And in fact, I would go
to the daycare there while he was in class two days a week. It's—as my father would like to say and he
was proud of—his seminary, it was a Baptist seminary, has won, had a Nobel Peace Prize winner. Martin
Luther King went there for seminary. So, yeah. It was a few years before my father, so, but it’s—

GN
It's amazing.

HW
It is.

JS
Yeah. Yeah.

00;04;06;18 - 00;04;09;26
GN
How about your own grade school? And—


Harold Williams
8


00;04;09;28 - 00;04;42;02
HW
My father got a job in upstate New York. Right after I’d gone, right between my kindergarten year and
my, first grade. And so, we moved to Geneva, New York, which is about halfway between Rochester and
Syracuse. And that's where I spent my formative years, you know, spent up to, I graduated high school
there, but my parents moved down to the area here between my junior and senior year. And so, I stayed
behind for a year and went to school there.

00;04;42;04 - 00;04;42;23
GN
Yeah.

00;04;42;23 - 00;04;44;10
JS
That’s very interesting, did you stay with friends?

00;04;44;10 - 00;04;44;27
HW
Yes.



Harold Williams
9

00;04;45;00 - 00;04;46;26
JS
Oh, well what a great experience.

00;04;46;26 - 00;04;48;01
HW
It was.

00;04;48;03 - 00;04;59;18
GN
Growing up, through those grade school, high school. What kind of a life, were you into sports? You did a
lot of reading? Did you do drama? How did you spend your time?

00;04;59;20 - 00;05;22;21
HW
I did a lot of reading. I was very active in Boy Scouts. I was an Eagle Scout. It’s, you know, I worked in
the—at summer camp there, which was great. And Geneva is right at the foot of Seneca Lake. Now, you
don't think about it. But the foot of Seneca Lake, all the Finger Lakes, is actually the northern end,
because they drain towards the north. And so, you know, the lake, the lakes were part of our history. I had
friends that had cottages right on the lake. And so, we would go there, go fishing, because they all had
boats. But I did other things, you know, Boy Scouts was a big part of what I did. So, it's, you know, we


Harold Williams
10

would go camping in different places around the Finger Lakes. You know, I was back there a little over a
month ago, and it, it's very different from when I grew up, but it's still—

GN
The same?

HW
Still the same. Yeah.


00;05;54;22 - 00;06;00;25
GN
With your father's religion, were you in religious programs, through—.

00;06;00;28 - 00;06;26;04
HW
Yeah. I mean, I went through the normal Christian education for a protestant. You know, we were active
in church, you know, it's, it was a big part of growing up. Yes. You know, the church was about a mile
from our house because, [pause] yeah, it's—.



Harold Williams
11

00;06;26;07 - 00;06;29;10
GN
Were you favored in any way because your father was a minister?

00;06;29;12 - 00;06;29;27
HW
Was I what?

00;06;29;27 - 00;06;33;09
GN
Were you favored?

HW
Oh—

00;06;33;11 - 00;06;35;07
JS
Or, what was it like being the pastor’s kid?

00;06;35;10 - 00;06;53;23


Harold Williams
12

HW
Yeah, well, we're called PKs, preacher’s kid. And [pause] no, I don't think we were favored. In fact, you
know, it's not uncommon to think you’re disadvantaged a little bit because everybody knows who you are
<laugh>.

GN
<Laugh> Yeah, right.

00;06;53;23 - 00;06;58;05
JS
And you're also expected to maintain a certain—I was the colonel's daughter <laugh>.

00;06;58;05 - 00;07;05;15
HW
<Laugh> Yeah, okay. Yeah. So, it's—but I don't regret any of it. You know, it was--.

00;07;05;17 - 00;07;19;26
GN
No. I'm just kind of, the background and the activities of your life, trying to get that picture. Okay, just
transfer now to high school and college, what subjects were you good at? [Pause] All of them, I guess
<laugh>.


Harold Williams
13


00;07;20;02 - 00;07;50;19
HW
No, I wouldn't say so. I struggled with English. It's—in fact, it was recommended, you know, that I do
some additional efforts in that. And in fact, one of the things that I did, was I took Latin in high school for
three years. And it actually helped improve my English grades. You know, as I used to say, I can speak
with dead people now <laugh>.

GN
<Laugh>

00;07;50;21 - 00;08;01;14
HW
But it's—I mean, we were a small, close knit group taking Latin because most of them were taking French
or Spanish.

00;08;01;16 - 00;08;13;29
GN
Was there anything in those years that prepared you for what you're doing now? Was it mathematics, was
it physics, was there something that gave you that insight?



Harold Williams
14

00;08;14;02 - 00;08;44;23
HW
You know, my high school had a terminal from the local BOCES that we could do some basic computing
skills, and some of us would—got permission to spend more time doing things, and playing games, and
writing code and stuff. So, there were opportunities. And I mean, you had to take advantage of them. I
mean, I've said that, you know, there's lots of places where you can get opportunities to do things, but you
have to really want to and take advantage of them.

00;08;44;29 - 00;08;49;07
GN
Yeah. So, computers were in place when you were in school, more or less?

00;08;49;09 - 00;08;52;06
HW
Yeah, yeah. Early days.

00;08;52;06 - 00;08;53;28
JS
Another form.

00;08;54;01 - 00;09;32;02


Harold Williams
15

HW
Early form, you know, I had the—in Geneva, Hobart and William Smith, or the college in town, and they
had relationships with the high school. And so, they had, what would they call the [pause], it was, there
was some sort of seminar program where you would go over to the college and take some courses, and I
took one on computing. And, you know, it was punch cards and the whole nine yards and, it was really
my first exposure probably to the real computers of those days.

00;09;32;04 - 00;09;37;12
GN
And other stuff, how about the arts? Did you sing, were you in plays? Did you—

00;09;37;12 - 00;10;41;14
HW
Yeah. No. I mean, I sang in church, in the choir. I also—we had a bell choir, and so I did play the bells,
hand bells, that was that was a lot of fun. I enjoyed that, and [pause] it came into play later on. I was
involved in some professional activities, and one of my friends that I met through that passed away early.
He got a cancer in his eye, and he was—never liked doctors. And so he didn't go soon enough before it
actually ended up. And so, Ben had been—was working and had gone to school at Cornell. And he was
big into bell ringing at Cornell. They have the McGraw Tower, where—and so he was part of the carol on
there and everything.

GN


Harold Williams
16

Yeah.

00;10;41;21 - 00;10;49;03
HW
Which, I mean, when I've been back to Cornell, I’ve tried to make sure I go see it because it's just—it’s
very impressive.

00;10;49;06 - 00;10;51;23
JS
Is it when they're performing when they’re ringing the bells?

00;10;51;29 - 00;11;14;25
HW
Yeah. I mean, Covid's changed that whole schedule, but they were I mean, typically in—during school
they—there were so many regularly doing it. And so, I had an opportunity to do a new bell ringing—in
terms, of we didn't—at my professional society, we did it in our band. And so that was, it was nice. And it
pulled me back from my time as a kid.

00;11;14;27 - 00;11;24;20
GN


Harold Williams
17

Just say a few words, not too much now, about your sisters. <Laugh> We kind of left them out of the
picture here. You know, whether it’s a competition here or—

JS
And your mom.

00;11;24;22 - 00;11;27;08
HW
I have three sisters. I'm the oldest.

00;11;27;11 - 00;11;29;13
GN
Oh. Well, that's different.

00;11;29;15 - 00;12;03;16
HW
Yeah. There's eight years between me and my next sibling. So, as I've said, I'm the oops child <laugh>.
But we have a close relationship. My younger sister is fifteen years younger than I am. She actually went
to school here at Marist, has a degree in history. And then, she worked up at Vanderbilt and—.



Harold Williams
18

00;12;03;16 - 00;12;04;00
GN
Oh.


00;12;04;00 - 00;12;20;06
HW
And Valkill for a while. She ended up following the family, you know, profession. She's now a minister
out in Scranton. Yeah, so.

00;12;20;09 - 00;12;23;12
GN
I’ve been talking a lot. Jan has a few questions of her own <laugh>.

00;12;23;15 - 00;12;29;21
JS
I know that you said your dad was a minister. How about your mom?

00;12;29;24 - 00;13;14;07
HW


Harold Williams
19

She was, from the time we were born, she was mostly a housewife, and she was active in things that we
were doing. But in many ways, and I've described this, my mother was more religious than my father. I
mean, in the Presbyterian church is what's known as a presbytery, and everything is done by an election
type of thing. And my mother was one of the first female, I forget what the term is, but she ran the
Presbyterian, the elected leader for a year or so. So, she was--she was a force to be reckoned with
<laugh>.

00;13;14;10 - 00;13;15;19
JS
I think that's a great trait <laugh>.

00;13;15;19 - 00;14;06;04
HW
It is, you know. It's, I mean, I can't say that I understand all the, things that women have to go through.
But both my mother and her mother weren't going to, you know, they made sure that they were treated
equally. My father had this habit. He would make a donation to a charity in the area. And, you know, the
checks said, you know, Alan and Doris Williams and, you know, everything said that. And if the thank
you note came back just addressed to him the next year when they made the donation, they cut it in half.
If you're only thanking one of us, you obviously didn't need all of it. So, you know, it's—.

00;14;06;06 - 00;14;07;20
JS


Harold Williams
20

She expected respect.

00;14;07;25 - 00;14;08;21
HW
Yes.

00;14;08;24 - 00;14;27;23
JS
Yeah, that. Oh. Can I—yeah. Because, that does lead into a question that I have for you based on an
interview I listened to. So, there was an interview with Tech Channel, okay, about your leadership of
Cher. The IT professionals group.

00;14;27;26 - 00;14;28;14
HW
Yeah.

00;14;28;16 - 00;14;42;20
JS
And I emphasize the central role of human relations and enterprise technology. You mentioned
specifically the ability to interact with people to build the community up.


Harold Williams
21


00;14;42;22 - 00;15;07;03
HW
Yeah. I mean, Cher is a user’s group. It's users of the technology, and I firmly believe that the human
relationship is as important as the technology itself. You have to have that interaction with people. [Pause]
It's rare that you can do it all yourself. You need to interact with others to get other ideas and other things.
So yeah, it's always been part of me is, the technology is a tool, but it's the people that you're supporting.
That's the important part.

00;15;25;22 - 00;15;29;16
JS
How would we see that in action?

00;15;29;07 - 00;15;38;10
HW
<Laugh> [Pause] Yeah, that's an interesting question.

00;15;38;12 - 00;15;42;25
JS
Well, I imagine some of it would be just in the time that you take.



Harold Williams
22

00;15;42;27 - 00;16;12;29
HW
It is. And making sure that you do things that are easy to use, that are intuitive as much as you can. You
know, it's, you know, there are a lot of things that are common today in technology that weren't when I
started. And so, you know, we did things here in terms of electronic reserves, of resources. And so those
are—yeah.

00;16;13;01 - 00;16;17;10
GN
Is there a sharing actually of knowledge and information and methodology?

00;16;17;16 - 00;16;42;26
HW
Oh, absolutely. At Cher, that was a big focus. Is, I mean, our tagline was for a while, “It's not an acronym.
It's what we do”. So, you know, the most popular sessions that, that we give are those that are from other
users who have experience doing something, not the vendors or the people trying to sell you something.

00;16;42;27 - 00;16;44;07
GN
Oh, I see. Alright.



Harold Williams
23

00;16;44;10 - 00;17;04;29
JS
We have a similar one called “It Works for Me.” Yeah. The idea is maybe it'll work for you, too. Well, so I
imagine that when you bring on new staff in IT, you’re clearly looking for people who also prioritize
human relations.

HW
Yeah.

JS
What other traits do you look for?

00;17;08;02 - 00;17;50;09
HW
You know, it's. I always looked for somebody that was going to be, that was confident in their technology
experience. And was going to push the boundaries, you know, [pause] I have described it in the past as,
my job was to get the best hires and put them in the room and get the best experience out of that. You're
not always going to agree with everybody, but you make your argument, and we end up choosing what's
best for things. So, people that could do that sort of thing is not common.

JS


Harold Williams
24

<Affirmative>

00;17;50;11 - 00;18;15;11
HW
I also tried to look for—it, it's, it's very easy to get in to “Well, that's the way we've always done it”. Yeah,
yeah. And that's not something--it's funny because, you know, some of the people think I don't—I’m
resistant to change. Well, I'm resistant to change for change’s sake. But I want the better thing.

00;18;15;17 - 00;18;27;23
GN
Can you hold on to that concept? I want to come up with that later on in another area. But we overstepped
something here. How did you come here? How did you find Marist?

00;18;27;02 - 00;18;56;09
HW
It was, I mean, my father moved out and had a church in Marlboro and Highland, one in each. And so I
wasn't really sure what I was going to do. And so I—summer of 1976, May 30th, I showed up here at the
admissions office, which was then on the middle floor of Greystone,

00;18;56;11 - 00;18;57;11
GN


Harold Williams
25

Greystone.

00;18;57;14 - 00;19;00;03
JS
Graystone. Yes. Jim Daly.

00;19;00;08 - 00;19;01;02
HW
Yeah.

00;19;01;05 - 00;19;03;24
GN
Well, was- Tony [ ] involved?

00;19;03;26 - 00;19;05;06
HW
No, not in admissions at that time.

00;19;05;12 - 00;19;06;13
JS


Harold Williams
26

Jim Daly.

00;19;06;16 - 00;19;18;04
GN
Oh, oh. Admissions. Yeah. Okay, you’re right, you’re right. I’m over to the business office already, and
you’re getting your money. <Laugh> Okay, anyway back to you.

00;19;18;07 - 00;19;29;17
HW
<Laugh>. So, you know, it's interesting walking up to the library here from Donnelly. It was like—this
was the road where they started <laugh>.

00;19;29;20 - 00;19;32;10
GN
Yeah. When I came here it was a farm.

00;19;32;14 - 00;19;33;02
HW
Yeah.



Harold Williams
27

00;19;33;04 - 00;19;45;18
GN
<Laugh> Yeah. You know, the cows were ahead of us on the road, you know, going in. But then, that's,
that's coming to the school today. To the college.

00;19;45;22 - 00;19;46;01
HW
Yeah.

00;19;46;06 - 00;19;47;18
GN
And that's how it all started.

00;19;47;18 - 00;19;48;04
HW
Yeah.

00;19;48;06 - 00;19;50;15
GN
You came here and stayed. More or less.


Harold Williams
28


00;19;50;15 - 00;19;55;22
JS
What was your major?

00;19;55;25 - 00;20;24;02
HW
<Laugh> I really wasn't sure what major was. I mean, I did like computers, when I matriculated, my
major was physics. Well, I wasn't sure what I was going to do, and that was an extremely small major
<laugh>. Yeah. And so technically, I never changed it until the very end.

00;20;24;04 - 00;20;25;24
JS
But did we have a computer science major?

00;20;25;24 - 00;20;45;00
HW
No. At the time, the only major was computer mathematics. More computers than math majors and more
math than computer majors. Okay. But that was the only thing open to us at the time. And so, I ended up
graduating with a BA in computer mathematics.



Harold Williams
29

00;20;45;02 - 00;20;47;12
GN
Was Dennis Murray president?

00;20;47;15 - 00;20;54;00
HW
I was the first class to graduate under Dennis. So, he was not—

00;20;54;00 - 00;20;54;08
GN
Oh, so he ( ).

00;20;54;09 - 00;21;30;13
HW
Yeah, he was not president when I started. I have some—I mean, I remember, you know, I was working, I
think my sophomore and junior years in the computer center, which at that time was in Adrian Hall,
which was <laugh>. Yeah. And so, you know, we would often hang out on the area, the little green area
by, between Donnelly and Adrian, which had some of ( ) art at that point.

JS


Harold Williams
30

Yeah, that’s right.

00;21;30;15 - 00;21;53;05
HW
Right. And so, we'd be playing frisbee and, you know, this was like August of ‘79. I remember playing
frisbee, and the frisbee went up and over the bushes there and landed on the sidewalk. And Dennis was
walking by. He was early there, and we were like, that's the new president. He picked it up and threw it
back to us.

JS
<Laugh>

00;21;53;07 - 00;21;59;17
HW
And that's where my first memory is of him.

00;21;59;20 - 00;22;04;05
JS
Wow, so, you came and never left?



Harold Williams
31

00;22;04;08 - 00;22;36;03
HW
That's the way I’ve described it <laugh>. Yeah. You know it’s—I came, I graduated, I really wasn't
against ( ), but I got an offer as an application programmer here, and I took it. Started it and did work for a
year supporting the registration building and all those fun systems.

00;22;36;05 - 00;22;46;00
GN
Did anybody interview you for the job, or was it just, assumption that you can do this assimilation into
the—

00;22;46;03 - 00;22;57;06
HW
I really don't remember. I can't imagine they wouldn't have interviewed me, but there wasn't a lot of
competition for the job.

00;22;57;08 - 00;23;05;18
GN
Was there another person involved? With the same thing you were doing?

00;23;05;20 - 00;23;32;29


Harold Williams
32

HW
Yeah. There was, at the time, the, you know, we—when we, when I first started the I mean, there was
some computers in terms of terminals and stuff on campus, but the backend system was—oh boy.

00;23;32;14 - 00;23;33;22
JS
We were renting time—

00;23;33;24 - 00;24;25;17
HW
We were renting time. There was a IBM fellow named Steve Dunwell. Who started his part of his
fellowship with this company called SECOS, the shared education computer online system. And basically,
we were renting time from SECOS, who actually bought it from Cornell University at their medical
center. And so, we were running down there, and I would have to go down to 71st Street in Manhattan
periodically. And then SECOS ended up going out of business, and Marist ended up accepting and doing
that. They ended up buying their own, and we spent years supporting some of the old clients.

00;24;25;15 - 00;24;27;01
GN
Did you know a Kevin Carolyn?



Harold Williams
33

00;24;27;03 - 00;24;29;14
HW
I did, I worked for Kevin for several years.

00;24;29;17 - 00;24;30;16
GN
Okay.

00;24;30;18 - 00;24;32;04
HW
I had him in math <laugh>.

00;24;32;07 - 00;24;37;12
GN
Oh yeah, it’s just, saying SECOS I got that kind of connection.

00;24;37;18 - 00;24;39;12
HW
Yep, yep.



Harold Williams
34

00;24;39;14 - 00;24;59;21
GN
Okay. So, this is all. Now you're here, let's talk about doing things here and so on and how unique your
position. Did you have the students working with you?

00;24;59;23 - 00;25;15;26
HW
At various times I've had the students working with me. I mean, today I work with, we have a program
called the IBM joint study where we work on certain research, but other, and that's a lot of my focus right
now.

00;25;15;28 - 00;25;24;04
GN
Because it's usually, that's always a problem in itself because they're here this year and the next year
they’re—you start all over again.

00;25;24;06 - 00;26;02;05
HW
But, you know, we're here to get students educated and set them loose in the world. And so, you know,
okay, you know, we try to make sure they document things so that we have a, you know, we have some
continuity with the next set of students. It doesn't always work well. But you know. You know, part of it


Harold Williams
35

is, and I live vicariously through some of the students and some of the staff, it's sort of like, you know,
you get them up to a point and then you release them. It's sort of like releasing the doves or the butterflies
or whatever.

GN
You start all over.

HW
You start over! And sometimes they come back.

00;26;04;23 - 00;26;12;11
GN
More male than female? Or equal?

00;26;12;14 - 00;26;22;11
HW
The pool is still heavily male. It's a major that attracts more men.

00;26;22;15 - 00;26;27;04
GN


Harold Williams
36

I was going to say, and the best people, are the females. Or the brightest.

00;26;27;10 - 00;26;36;27
HW
It's a mixture. Yeah. It there's, there's some of them that they're passionate and do it. It's, you know.

00;26;36;29 - 00;26;53;08
GN
I just know these things from afar. Yeah. I mean, I know people who were involved with it, and I know,
I’ve been around here in changing times. And, that was always, you know, a part of it,

00;26;53;11 - 00;27;00;18
JS
Well, something from afar. You mentioned the IBM joint study. And that rings a bell, way back in the 80s.

00;27;00;22 - 00;27;08;25
HW
Oh, yeah. And I'm. I'm an old man these days, and I have old man's disease, and I need to go visit the
restroom <laugh>.



Harold Williams
37

[Recorder is turned off and then back on]

00;27;09;00 – 00;27;46;00
HW
Okay, the IBM joint study <laugh> it's been a big part of my life. The, you know, I trace it back more,
farther back than most people. You know, there was a project that I helped support for Milt Teichman.
Yeah. There’s a name from the past. And there were two professors involved with some of the things. Milt
Teichman and Joe Ballinger.

00;27;47;01 - 00;27;50;18
GN
Yeah. Two opposites <laugh>.

00;27;50;20 - 00;29;54;19
HW
Well <laugh> Yeah, yeah, in many ways, both in humanities. Yeah. And I said to people, if you were to
take all the faculty and pick out the two least likely to want to use technology, you. <Laugh> You would
probably pick those two. But they both adopted technology, you know, and the work with, Doctor
Teichman was involved in college writing, and this was in, you know, about, I think 1981 or so. So it was,
you know, in those days, there was no Microsoft Windows, there was no Microsoft Word. You know, so
there were resources we did on terminals to allow students to write. And his theory was writing does not--
is really a process of rewriting. Go back and make corrections and rewrite. And to make it easier for the


Harold Williams
38

students, rather than having to get the typewriter out and start over, you would actually, do it online. And
there was a program from IBM's Yorktown Research called Pistol, which was designed to do grammar
checks and things like that. And so it was very early on in the process. And so, we did a lot of work with
that. There was work we, I mean, it was, we had to do some work on the computer to actually get the
programs to install. So, it was a bunch of work on that. And to me, that was the first real collaborative
thing. So, I traced the IBM joint study back to that. The quote “official” IBM joint study was, there was
an IBM by the names of James Cannavino <laugh>.

00;29;54;11 - 00;29;56;23
GN
Oh, yeah. We’re sitting in the library, aren’t we?

00;29;56;23 - 00;30;53;27
HW
<Laugh> We are. Yeah. And he had the idea of--and it was it was not just a college, but it was in terms of
business. What happens if you give a small college a large computing resource? It was a decent sized
mainframe we ended up getting. And basically, you take the, you know, the compute power, the storage
and all those things away from what we can manage, and what can we do with the students to do that?
And so, I've spent a lot of my career dealing with that issue. How do you make resources, you know,
available across the board? And, you know, one of the things that I tried to do was to make sure that we
reached out to the humanities to deal with some of those things.



Harold Williams
39

00;30;53;22 - 00;31;09;02
GN
Only question right now, how is it that IBM and us got together? Was it Cannavino who directed in that
direction? I mean, why didn't they go to New Paltz, or why didn’t they go to Vassar, or why didn’t they go
to Saint Mary’s? You know?

00;31;09;05 - 00;31;12;22
HW
I don't know those answers. I can give you my theories on those.

JS
We want to hear them.

00;31;15;00 - 00;31;50;08
HW
Okay. I mean, and I say this to others, too. I mean, geography makes a big deal. We’re six miles north of
their main plant. You know, we've been willing to try things. You know, and, from some of them, the fact
that what I was pushing on in terms of, we make it available across the whole institution. So, we didn't
limit it just to computer science. We made it with all—any program that wanted to deal with something,
we would help them.



Harold Williams
40

00;31;50;08 - 00;32;02;04
GN
I have to laugh, because I remember in the early days, we had summer programs here. And when IBM
closed for two months—or two weeks, we closed down the summer school for two weeks.

00;32;02;09 - 00;32;02;19
HW
Yeah.

00;32;02;20 - 00;32;40;10
GN
Let's leave to clean. Yeah. You know, it's just that eighty percent of the summer students were IBMers
coming at night, you know, and so we were making available to them the classroom and so on. I
remember another little fact, Cashin--Ed Cashin, a brother here at the time saying, you know, who is
dealing with some of the managers or, what will you be charging for this? So, we put on this part to be
serious. You know, we're IBM <laugh>. So, you mean they told us we underrated the rentals that we were
going to charge for the use of the labs. You know, and so it was you know, there were kind of a few other
things.

00;32;40;08 - 00;33;18;28
HW


Harold Williams
41

You mentioned a name that, I wish I had met him, was Ed Cashin. Yeah. I say that because he's written
the book about one of my ancestors. I came from Philadelphia. and, you know, I've tried to understand my
ancestors, and John William Bartram, where they were the royal botanists in America. Well, in the
colonies at the time. And he's written a book about it and it's like, oh, man, I wish I could have--
<affirmative>. But I didn't realize that until he'd already passed away.

00;33;18;10 - 00;33;26;24
GN
Yeah, well, he passed rather young in terms of those figures. I mean, he was a great teacher, I mean—

00;33;26;24 - 00;33;28;11
HW
I've heard that.

00;33;28;13 - 00;34;03;19
GN
Yeah, I still remember his research he did on the civil war ( ). As for the following that I want you to take
this, for this is full of just this Abraham Lincoln. And they've <laugh> stood around, you know, and they
were taken by just—yeah. Obviously this is the whole thing, yeah. I missed it for about three years and,
you know, five miles, you know, but nevertheless, it's the story that went with the facts, you know, and it
kind of carried the day, you know? And so, yeah. I—he was a personal friend, and I introduced him to his
wife.


Harold Williams
42


00;34;03;16 - 00;34;03;22
HW
Oh, good!

00;34;03;29 - 00;34;08;07
GN
<Laugh> That was another little sidebar.

00;34;08;09 - 00;34;26;12
JS
I just want to clarify one thing. <Affirmative> Was it that, IBM and particularly Doctor Cannavino, did
they come to Marist and say you guys should have a mainframe, or did Marist say, you know, we really
could use a mainframe? Let’s go to IBM?

00;34;26;14 - 00;35;35;06
HW
I mean [pause], we had a mainframe, but a small one at the time. You know, SECOS, its application ran
on a mainframe. And so when we took over their clients, we ended up having an IBM system 370 model
135. Now, that doesn’t mean a lot to most people, but it's a it's a small, midsize of the mainframes of that
day. And we've rapidly grown from there. It’s—my understanding is, yeah, it was Jim's idea. His technical


Harold Williams
43

assistant, Charlie Tuller, was actually involved in doing a lot of the work to get it there. And when we first
did it, you know, I spent many a day down at the, house on Boardman Road.

00;35;35;19 - 00;35;42;09
GN
Oh, yeah. Right by Lourde’s high school or something like that. Yeah.

00;35;42;11 - 00;35;44;25
HW
So—

00;35;44;27 - 00;35;58;03
JS
Tell me if this question is premature <laugh>. [Pause] I can only imagine the enormous change that you
have seen since—and led.

00;35;58;06 - 00;36;00;21
HW
I've been a small part of it. It takes a team.



Harold Williams
44

00;36;00;23 - 00;36;04;28
JS
But, certainly more change in technology than—

00;36;05;03 - 00;36;05;25
HW
Oh, absolutely.

00;36;05;25 - 00;36;06;17
JS
Than anything else on campus.

00;36;06;19 - 00;36;07;26
HW
Absolutely.

00;36;07;28 - 00;36;17;10
JS
So, can you talk to us about that process, maybe what you learned from the process and what you
observed about how Marist manages that process of change?


Harold Williams
45


00;36;17;12 - 00;38;35;03
HW
I mean, [pause] the technology is vastly different over the last forty years. I mean, it's just, you know,
personal computers really didn't exist when I started here. It was in those early days. You know, it's--
[Pause] You know, after I graduated here, I also, at the time, Syracuse University had on campus presence
where they did a, master's in electrical engineering. A couple other different things like that, mostly to
support IBM. And so they would fly professors down once a week. I mean, it was classes four days a
week, and every day some of them would fly down and they were taught on campus, first in Donnelly and
then in Marist East. So, it was—I was lucky to be able to get in and take courses there. And so, you know,
it was I mean, I actually I'd say one of the things I learned there, I was dealing with people that had
graduated with B.S. from Pittsburgh, Penn State, all big tech schools. And one of the things that I learned
there was I had more experience with some of these things in undergraduate than they did. There were
opportunities here, and I took advantage of them. So, you know, there was a show on, AMC called Halt
and Catch Fire. And it's about the micro processing in the days of the early 80s. And I've watched parts of
it and I'm like, I've seen that. I've done that. And so, it's like the experience, you know, one of the big
chips that Apple devoted to was the Motorola 68,000. Now, I'm sorry for throwing all these buzzwords
out with you.

00;38;35;15 - 00;38;37;00
JS
It's good to have them for the record, it is.



Harold Williams
46

00;38;37;02 - 00;39;25;25
HW
Okay. But at the time, and this was a Syracuse class that I was taking, and, there was no way to really use
that chip in a lot of things. It was early days. The professor from Syracuse had gotten one early on, and I
got experience in the microprocessors. But, I mean, we had to write a code on one chip and then load it
into other chips. And so it was—we were doing some of those interesting things, and those things all
influenced me to a certain degree. And it was the opportunities. And I try to tell that to people here. You
get opportunities here that you won't get anywhere else. Take advantage of them.

00;39;25;17 - 00;39;43;16
GN
Yeah. A point that you made earlier, and I like to come back to this, there was a certain fear about Marist
going more tech, computer, math stuff versus the arts. Yeah, I was happy to hear, president Kevin at the
graduation—

00;39;43;19 - 00;39;43;26
HW
Oh, he’s wonderful.

00;39;43;26 - 00;39;44;17
GN


Harold Williams
47

<Affirmative>

00;39;44;17 - 00;39;46;06
HW
Wonderful.

00;39;46;09 - 00;40;04;27
GN
He used the conjunction and. It's not either or, it's going to be both. Computer science, and the arts and
literature. Absolutely. You talked about it in terms of Milt Teichman for instance, writing and importance
of the computer for the writing and the creation of essays. Yeah, I feel like that hits the nail <laugh>.

00;40;04;27 - 00;40;21;24
HW
It does. And, you know, I also had the privilege of having an academic advisor, because I was a quote
“physics major”. My advisor was Richard LaPietra.

00;40;21;27 - 00;40;24;14
GN
<Laugh> there you go.


Harold Williams
48


00;40;24;16 - 00;40;37;14
HW
Yeah, he pushed me to do more writing. Do some arts, you know, and he pushed me hard to do those
things. And I was smart enough to listen to him.

00;40;37;16 - 00;40;38;15
GN
You had some of the giants.

00;40;38;18 - 00;40;44;15
HW
I did <laugh>. Yeah. You know, it's—.

00;40;44;17 - 00;40;52;12
GN
You’re lucky, you missed Gus Nolan. <Laugh>. C-plus Gus.

00;40;52;14 - 00;41;00;09
HW


Harold Williams
49

<Laugh> I never had you, and one of the other ones, the old timers that I never had, but I interacted with
him as a dean, was Jack Kelly.

00;41;00;11 - 00;41;02;16
GN
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

00;41;02;19 - 00;41;15;17
HW
And I'm really sorry I never had him in class. You know, because I did my MBA, and it's like. And I, you
know, I interacted with Jack on a number of other projects and stuff.

00;41;15;17 - 00;41;17;07
GN
Yeah, yeah.

00;41;17;09 - 00;41;32;12
JS
Let's talk about dealing with, administrators and faculty on projects. So I think I read that one of the
things that you do is try to get the new tools, the new procedures, I guess, into the classrooms, into
students hands.


Harold Williams
50


00;41;32;12 - 00;41;33;05
HW
Yeah, absolutely.

00;41;33;09 - 00;41;35;07
JS
Can you tell us what that looks like, how that happens?

00;41;35;10 - 00;42;39;18
HW
Well, I mean, the key is, I mean, there are several keys on that, but one is making sure that it's relevant,
but also finding a faculty advocate. You know, it's—the faculty are what drives everything around. And
so, you know, if they're advocating for certain things for the students, they're the ones you need to
convince that it's worthwhile to do. I mean, when we were just talking here and I listed some of the
people that I worked with early on or with my advisor and stuff—they were all faculty. You know, yes. I
mean, as an undergrad, there was, you know, Kevin was our—Kevin Carolyn was our supervisor for the
most part. But, you know, there was a couple years where the computer center ran by students, and that's
all there was <laugh>.

00;42;39;14 - 00;42;50;23


Harold Williams
51

JS
How about faculty in computer science and math? Who were the folks there that were willing to say, like,
come help me try this out in my class?

00;42;50;26 - 00;42;51;26
HW
Oh <laugh>.

00;42;51;28 - 00;42;59;20
JS
Or people that you would go to to say, I think your kids could use this?

00;42;59;23 - 00;43;12;26
HW
You're stretching my memory with some of these things <laugh>.

JS
Roger Norton.

HW


Harold Williams
52

Roger, yeah. Roger was—Roger and I, we would often butt heads on a number of different things.

00;43;12;28 - 00;43;22;03
GN
Oh, yeah, I know Roger very well. I've had racquetball with him too. <Affirmative>. In fact, he fires
people if they beat him <laugh>.

00;43;22;06 - 00;46;25;03
HW
<Laugh> But, you know, they're—and I tried to make sure people, you know—oh, God what was that
faculty member’s name? Some of them have been here very short amounts of time, Roger’s a long-term
one. And I know where his heart is on these things. And I try to support him. And I spend a lot of time
supporting things Roger wants to do. You know? Marist, in technology, is known for Linux on the
mainframe. And that's partially because stuff that I and people that work with me did. And Roger was one
of the ones that we showed it to early, and he recognized the value and he had brought it into the classes.
This was early in his tenure as dean. This would be in the early 2000s, and I don't remember exactly when
he became dean. But, you know, we showed them that we can give a virtual server to a student. And in
fact, we could give them more than one. And so what they ended up doing is, it was part of web
programing one and web programing two, and they would use these things that we developed in the first
semester of the class. And then they would use that portfolio in their second semester. So they were
actually able to build upon their work. <Affirmative> And you know, Roger made several papers out of
that in terms of things that they were able to do. You know, it was <laugh> I also tell a story and this is
[pause] I got a call from a guy I knew down IBM saying—because we had been looking at how we get


Harold Williams
53

Linux on the mainframe for a while. We had worked with some people that were looking at doing some
things. And I got a call from IBM saying, we've got this version of Linux, can we come up and show it to
you? So they came up, and this was around Thanksgiving of 1999. And they said, here's what we've got.
We've done the base work. We would like you to distribute it. And so, we talked back and forth and we
worked some things out. And, part of the reason they worked with some summer things is there were
things that I'd done at IBM, the IBM, you know, network security folks have certain rules of what they
can and can't do. And we aren't bound by those rules.

00;46;25;29 - 00;46;28;24
GN
Yeah. Right.

00;46;28;27 - 00;47;03;12
HW
And so we can make things more open than they can do things with. And so, based on some of the things
that we were working on and knew from other folks, I knew this had some possibility. But I also knew
that if it was going to take off, it would get in the press. And that's probably something that I couldn't do
under the radar. You know, there were things we would do in terms of supporting faculty or students and
other things that I didn't always ask permission <laugh>.

00;47;03;03 - 00;47;08;05
GN


Harold Williams
54

Now, this leads us into a segway that we’ve managed to get to, which is the crystal ball.

00;47;08;07 - 00;47;08;29
HW
Yeah.

00;47;09;02 - 00;47;46;27
GN
Where are we going? And the things you’re saying now is that we're already there, in other words, it’s
change is the nature of the game, you know, we’re in a constant form of change. So, is Marist willing to
make the changes, it would seem so, but I don't know, we could have people holding us back. It's
insecure, let's stay where we are, we have it made here. Now, why take a risk? You know versus, look, if
you want to stay alive, you're going to have to do these things. And I wonder if there are some of those
problems that you see on the horizon that we have to address?

00;47;47;00 - 00;48;18;24
HW
We've had some of those in the past where it's easier to stay where you are. You know, when I went to talk
to my boss about doing this Linux on the mainframe and making it available, he had one question for me,
and he had one demand for me. The question was, are you willing to bet your career on this as being
something? Oh, yeah. It was not subtle.



Harold Williams
55

00;48;18;13 - 00;48;20;18
JS
Wow.

00;48;20;21 - 00;48;29;02
HW
And I answered, yes, I am. This is something I think is going to take off. And his next—

00;48;29;03 - 00;48;33;06
JS
Can you tell us a little bit about Linux? It's open source?

00;48;33;09 - 00;48;53;05
HW
It's an operating system. Yes, it's an open source. There are companies that support it and you can buy
services from them. But it, for the most part is designed by a community of people, and the efforts they
put it into it. It’s—

00;48;53;07 - 00;48;55;02
JS


Harold Williams
56

And, you think that this is the way of the future.

00;48;55;05 - 00;50;19;12
HW
It is it is for the most part, yes. It is significant. There are there are other things that are very specific. You
know, there are I don't--I mean, at this time I don't see it replacing some other operating systems because
of the nature of the beast. You know, there's a very specific operating system that does what's called the
[pause] there's an IBM mainframe running very specialized that does eighty plus percent of all credit card
transactions, and so when you swipe your credit card, it probably hits the mainframe behind it. And it's a
very specialized called TPF, transaction processing facility. And it's designed in terms of credit card,
airlines--it's designed to be fast. You know, you don't have time to wait for things. So that's not something
we've ever done--but those are things that are not going to be replaced by Linux. I don't think any time
soon. Those are very specialized things, very specialized skills. You know, the Linux stuff, I mean, I have
an old-fashioned watch, but there were versions of Linux that run on Apple, your Apple Watch for the
most part, is probably based on some of it.

00;50;19;26 - 00;50;20;04
GN
I have one.

00;50;20;05 - 00;50;22;23
HW


Harold Williams
57

Yeah, so.

00;50;22;24 - 00;50;23;12
GN
Not with me <laugh>.

00;50;23;14 - 00;50;30;10
HW
Yeah, but, you know, it's embedded in lots of things.

00;50;30;12 - 00;50;37;06
JS
So--I interrupted you. You said that your boss said, are you willing to bet your career on this?

00;50;37;08 - 00;50;37;19
HW
He did.

00;50;37;19 - 00;50;38;28
JS


Harold Williams
58

And he made one demand?

00;50;39;04 - 00;51;12;15
HW
Okay, I answered the first question properly. And the other thing was, he said that we could not do it until
January. Because, remember, it was December 1999. <Laugh> Y2K was coming up. And he didn't want
anything to affect our ability to respond to Y2K. And so we delayed it until January. And it took off far
more than any of us had envisioned. So yeah.

00;51;12;13 - 00;51;27;19
JS
So, this is a related question. Can you give us an overview of what had to change in IT as Marist became
larger and more complex?

00;51;27;25 - 00;51;32;04
HW
Yeah. Unfortunately, I’ve got to take a break again. Yeah, yeah. I'm sorry.

00;51;32;06 - 00;51;33;00
JS
No, no. We’re glad—


Harold Williams
59


00;51;33;02 - 00;51;33;08
GN
We're, gee--.

00;51;33;08 - 00;51;33;29
JS
We’re glad you're here and you’re willing to give us this time.

00;51;33;29 - 00;51;35;28
GN
Yeah, just make sure you come back, though <laugh>.

00;51;36;00 - 00;51;38;22
HW
<Laugh>

00;51;38;24 - 00;51;41;21
GN
Okay.


Harold Williams
60


[Recorder is turned off and then back on]

00;51;41;23 - 00;51;48;17
JS
So, thank you. Marist over the last forty years is becoming much larger and massively more complex.

00;51;48;17 - 00;51;48;27
HW
Yes.

00;51;49;01 - 00;51;57;25
JS
So, what did you have to do with the technology to--really to allow that growth to happen?

00;51;57;22 - 00;52;35;10
HW
[Pause] That's an interesting question <laugh>. [Pause] It's been. I mean, the part of it is, you know, not
changing the direction drastically all the time. And so, you have a path, and you head out on it, and you
try to stay on it as much as you can.


Harold Williams
61


00;52;35;16 - 00;53;09;14
GN
Maybe you’d be better here than us, to define what the problem is. And the problem is that we've
increased registration. We've increased, all kinds of, the records part. They have to be coordinated. Or,
you have to have access to them for one, the AD needs to be able to find out how many students are in the
various classes, etc. etc. So, access to information.

00;53;09;10 - 00;53;47;04
HW
It is. I mean, and part of that is provided by whatever I mean, the base program that we would use in that,
right now we're using a program called Banner, and that's known as a enterprise resource planning
program or ERP. And it's a bunch of programs that work together to deliver services. In this case, Banner
was designed for higher education. So, it has student registration, it has admissions, it has financial aid.
You know, if I'm running a company, I don't need a financial aid for the most part. So it's very tailored for
higher education.

00;53;47;16 - 00;53;50;13
JS
You brought Banner in, right? We didn't always have.

00;53;50;15 - 00;53;51;25


Harold Williams
62

HW
No, we did not always have Banner.

00;53;51;27 - 00;53;54;20
JS
So, we had to transition to that.

00;53;54;23 - 00;54;29;09
HW
We had a homegrown application many, many years ago when we've posted by a different homegrown
application, and then we replaced that with an ERP from what was called Information Associates, and that
was a program that ran for years. And then Information Associates was bought by SunGard, who had
Banner. And so, they encouraged us to, to convert to Banner. And so, we did that.

00;54;29;29 - 00;54;36;28
GN
Where do you find this out? Well, what's the research you do to find that there is a Banner? Did they
come and knock on your door?

00;54;37;04 - 00;54;53;08
HW


Harold Williams
63

Well, there is some of that, okay <laugh>. You know, they have salesmen that go around, you know, the
number of emails I get that are for those types of things is astronomical.

00;54;53;10 - 00;54;59;01
GN
Yeah. And how do you pay attention? Which ones are the more important ones is do you go to a seminar,
or--?

00;54;59;03 - 00;56;05;09
HW
We can. There is today an organization called Educause. It’s the merger of two other previous
organizations, but it's designed for technology in higher education. And so it, you know, we can very
much like we talked about before, you can go to the which was six weeks ago, they had the annual
Educause meeting where they talk about different things. There's online discussion groups, you know, so
there's all sorts of resources that Educause has about what are the best practices for IT in higher
education. But there's also, you know, how to do certain things. How do you look at the technology? And
so there the, part of them is to try to make the IT professional more professional in terms of, you know,
evaluating things and processes. And so, at that meeting, there'll be all sorts of vendors that will have a
trade show. And so, you can go visit them and they'll be more than happy to <laugh>, to take your
information and send you stuff.

00;56;19;21 - 00;56;34;23


Harold Williams
64

GN
We’re getting to the end of this. So, I have to ask these tender questions. What is one or two of your
disappointments? The way you talk about Marist, you think it's all glory <laugh>.

00;56;34;26 - 00;56;35;19
HW
You know, it's funny.

00;56;35;19 - 00;56;47;27
GN
There must have been some disappointment along the road, or bump as it were. Would you say? Just—not
a lot about it, but just give me a clue.

00;56;47;29 - 00;58;21;18
HW
I'm an eternal optimist, so I tend not to focus on those, you know, it will take me a minute to think about
that. I [pause] and it's not Marist, per se. It's just, you know, my interaction with a number of things I--I
wish that I had had the ability to have the time to go back to school to get, you know, a higher degree of
some sort, but just never had the personal time to do it. I wish [pause]. I mean, we push the bounds of a
lot of things here. So, you know, I used to say the good thing about working at Marist is we had a
president who appreciated the new technology, and he's not a technician, but he knew technology. I also
said the bad thing was the new technology <laugh>. So, you know, there are a lot of things that, you


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65

know, you had to fight for every dime. But, you know, that's not bad. And so but, you know, we were
given much more freedom than I think a lot of other schools because of Dennis, you know.

00;58;21;03 - 00;58;30;16
GN
Well, that's the flip side of this now. What do you think are some of your best successes?

00;58;30;18 - 00;59;27;04
HW
I think some of my best successes is I look at students that I interacted with that when they were students
who've gone off and been successful. I look at, when I'm out. I mean, I think we've done some things
interesting here. You know, we were one of the early schools that put fiber optics between some of our
buildings. You know, when we built Lowell Thomas, we wired that in with fiber optics, one of the first
places that would do that. And that was not cheap. You know, we had to make the case to do that. And yet
now, that's not even a second thought when we do those things, you know. We pushed, I was involved in
some of the, you know, what we call a port per pillow, we put in--.

JS
Oh, right.

HW


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66

We put in networking into the dorms. Now, we weren't the first to do that, but we were--we pushed the
envelope on that.

00;59;35;21 - 00;59;36;25
GN
Early up in the line.

00;59;36;25 - 00;59;37;22
HW
Yeah. Yeah.

00;59;37;24 - 00;59;46;03
JS
So, you’ve mentioned pushing at boundaries. Is there anything that could jolt you awake at night through
any anxiety around some of that pushing?

00;59;46;07 - 00;59;39;13
HW
Oh yeah. It's <laugh> oh, yeah. You know it’s—there always is, you know, have you covered all your
bases? Did you make sure you didn't allow somebody to do something that they should—I mean, that was
problematic? Did you cover the secure—security is probably one of the biggest things, and now it's nice


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that we have somebody dedicated to some of that here. You know, as—as Emily has said in some of her
recent discussions. You know, she's full time. It was one small part of my job before. And so, I don't have
to worry about some of those things anymore. It's [pause] But, you know, we pushed some things on that,
too, so. Yeah.

01;00;40;21 - 01;00;59;23
GN
This question is, if Jan can answer it—or ask it, or I can ask it, I’ll take the lead, and she may follow up. I
know you're known in the computer world out there. I just suspect, just talking to you now for this last
hour. I have a sense, I'm sure you’ve been given good offers to go someplace else.

HW
Yes.

01;00;59;25 - 01;01;02;04
GN
Why did you stay here?

01;01;02;06 - 01;01;03;04
HW
<Affirmative>


Harold Williams
68


01;01;03;06 - 01;01;04;27
GN
Better offers than you get here.

01;01;04;29 - 01;02;09;27
HW
Yeah. No, I mean, I didn't spend a lot of time looking for other places, but I did. I did have at least one
offer that in terms of, you know, cash as a salary was, was better than here. You know, I did—and
actually, the things that frustrate me here is not the salary per se, especially as I've gotten older. It's
[pause] it was the vacation time <laugh>. You know, I started out with three weeks and my friends who
went elsewhere started out with two weeks. And by the time they retired, they were up at six and seven
weeks, and I was stuck at four <laugh>. But no, and I did have an offer. But when I looked at it
objectively [pause], if you take the whole compensation, including the ability to have some flexibility in
what and how you do, I didn't have somebody looking over my shoulder.

01;02;09;18 - 01;02;10;13
JS
Autonomy.

01;02;10;16 - 01;02;39;12


Harold Williams
69

HW
Yeah. You had some autonomy. You know, when, and I've tried to explain this to people over there, it's
like. There are problems you're working on that—we have this wonderful library here. You can come over
here and do some research on things that you won't get anywhere else or other than another higher ed
place, take advantage of it.

01;02;39;12 - 01;03;50;29
HW
So, the ability to do that, and frankly, the compensation dollar for dollar in a lot of places when you take
the full compensation is not that bad. You know, I had somebody recruit me, and I've been here long
enough that my 403-B was at that point, I think eleven percent contribution, and I contributed, I think it
was one. And, you know, they were talking to me about numbers, and I said, this is my numbers. And they
go, no, that's not possible. And I said, <laugh> yeah, it is. You know, so, it's. I mean, [pause] it was
coming. I don't know who all the people who were involved with it, but. [Pause] It's not family per se, I
mean, you're still responsible for paying your own mortgage. But, you know, the—Marist and the
administration cares about their employees.

01;03;50;05 - 01;03;51;24
GN
Oh, while they’re here. I see.

01;03;51;27 - 01;03;58;18


Harold Williams
70

JS
Gus often asks, what is the glue that kept you here? And for many of us, it is that sense of community.

01;03;58;21 - 01;04;32;04
HW
I mean, you know, the college has only really looked at working from home over the last couple of years.
I had a woman who was working for me, and her husband was stage four cancer, and so she needed to
work from home. And so, I arranged to get to do that with her, well before anybody accepted it. It wasn't
generally done elsewhere, but I was able to get that through. You know.

01;04;32;29 - 01;04;34;07
JS
That's a great story, Harry.

01;04;34;14 - 01;05;12;29
HW
It you know, it’s. You know, I try to tell the people, and even, I mean, I don't have any direct influence
anymore, which is nice. It frees you up <laugh>. You know, something happens. Take the time, you know,
make sure things are handled properly with your family. That's what's important. You look back and I
can't remember, one of those silly little things is—nobody’s going to say on their deathbed ‘I wish I had
spent more time at work’, which is true.


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71


01;05;12;29 - 01;05;13;26
GN
<Affirmative>.

01;05;13;28 - 01;05;39;00
HW
But I think Marist, for the most part, has lived that. You know, I look at--you know, I'm not Roman
Catholic, so I don't have all those histories of things, but I think the brothers brought a lot of value. And—
they brought a lot of moral structure to the organization.

01;05;39;18 - 01;05;58;09
GN
Yeah. Well, you mention those people like LaPietra and you know, Kevin Carolyn and Belanger. You
know, they were great. Others were like, tip the line ( ).

01;05;58;11 - 01;05;59;13
HW
Yeah.



Harold Williams
72

01;05;59;16 - 01;06;07;16
GN
And so, you know, I always feel that, I don't know how I ever got here myself. You know <laugh>.

01;06;08;20 - 01;06;11;12
JS
Gus, do you want to ask your crystal ball question?

01;06;11;14 - 01;06;15;29
GN
Well now, that's kind of why—why is he staying here? Now you go.

01;06;16;00 - 01;06;23;06
JS
Yeah. So, what are your hopes for Marist College in the future?

01;06;23;09 - 01;07;08;04
HW
<Affirmative> [pause] I hope it really continues on the path that seems to be on. I think, you know, it's, I
mean, I don't agree necessarily with every decision, but that's life. You know, my wife doesn't agree


Harold Williams
73

<laugh> with everything I do <laugh>. Yeah. But, I was--I mean, I've spent the last several years working
the graduation, and so I have to sit through all the things and, you know, we joked, I’ve almost gotten
Dennis's speech down to the, like—

01;07;08;07 - 01;07;09;23
JS
<Laugh> May you live in interesting times.

01;07;09;23 - 01;07;11;01
HW
Yeah.

01;07;11;04 - 01;07;20;09
GN
The tender years first, and the three reasons why he came, you know. Yeah, and then the next time, you
know, and of course, on that level, I think the new president is—

01;07;20;12 - 01;07;22;11
HW
Oh, I was so impressed with him last time.


Harold Williams
74


01;07;22;11 - 01;07;24;02
GN
Oh, yeah.

01;07;24;05 - 01;08;36;01
HW
You know, and so, I have a lot more hope because of him. And, so I—I think there's good things ahead for
the school. You know, I mean, I’m wearing a Marist jacket right now. It's something we got for work. So,
but I get recognized out, when I'm traveling about. And so, to me, that's always positive. Yeah. [Pause] I
think, you know, and I try to push it with some, you know, we have opportunities that we've made
available to students here, and we need to continue to do those. I would love to see the joint study expand
to other schools. I really do believe that making the technology available to all the schools. Of course, I
know ( ) I tell him that IT spends more on the school of comm. arts than on the school of computer
science <laugh>.

JS
A digital media major <laugh>.

HW
<Laugh> Oh yeah. You know.


Harold Williams
75


01;08;42;27 - 01;08;46;15
GN
Any parting words? We just want to thank you so much for that.

01;08;46;15 - 01;08;50;25
JS
Anything we didn't ask you, that really, we should have as part of this record.

01;08;50;27 - 01;09;30;11
HW
I really can't think of anything—well. [Pause] I will tell you. I mean, it's, the campus has—the
beautification of the campus has been absolutely marvelous. You know, I mean, Dennis has described it as
he worked at three different institutions over his forty-some years. And looking back, I agree with him.
There are some pieces of Mrs. Fisher art that I miss. [Pause]. <Laugh> Not all of them.

01;09;30;05 - 01;09;31;27
JS
Right. Are there any left?



Harold Williams
76

01;09;32;00 - 01;09;38;00
HW
Oh, yeah. In the grove of trees out by the road there. There's still the black—.

GN
The Christmas tree.

01;09;41;00 – 01;10;05;05
HW
Well, yeah, okay. Is that what it is? <Laugh> Yeah. But I really used to—I liked that piece, even though
it’s, there used to be small versions of it throughout campus, the time. Yes. Yeah. And so, I really liked the
fact that brought the campus together. I miss the fish. I miss the piece that I call the Galactic Magnet. It
was a big horseshoe facing up.

01;10;05;07 - 01;10;07;09
JS
Oh, I forgot about that one. Yeah.

01;10;07;13 - 01;10;12;23
HW


Harold Williams
77

Oh, yeah. I don't know what she called it, but I called it the Galactic Magnet.

01;10;12;25 - 01;10;20;28
GN
Yeah, there was supposed to be—it was an invitation of the brothers apparently. Those little black statues
hanging around there.

01;10;20;28 - 01;10;22;18
HW
Yes. Yeah.

01;10;22;20 - 01;10;25;08
GN
But, and then the chessboard also.

01;10;25;15 - 01;10;26;23
HW
The chessboard I miss.

01;10;26;25 - 01;10;27;12


Harold Williams
78

JS
Chessboard.

01;10;27;12 - 01;10;29;21
HW
Yeah, yeah.

01;10;29;21 - 01;10;32;21
GN
Yeah, you know a lot about Marist don’t you? <Laugh>

01;10;32;23 - 01;10;37;17
HW
<Laugh> My understanding, it was a game that Doctor Foy picked out.

01;10;37;20 - 01;10;40;02
GN
Yes. Right, right. Yeah.

01;10;40;04 - 01;10;45;16


Harold Williams
79

JS
Harry, did you have a—a child come to Marist?

01;10;45;18 - 01;10;49;08
HW
For a while, and then, dropped out.

01;10;49;10 - 01;10;51;06
JS
We didn’t ask about your own kids, really.

01;10;51;08 - 01;11;02;05
HW
Yeah, well, between my wife and I, we actually have three children now. Carter’s our youngest, he's
actually moved back in the house to save money to buy a house.

01;11;02;07 - 01;11;02;17
JS
Nice.



Harold Williams
80

01;11;02;19 - 01;11;04;02
HW
<Affirmative>

01;11;04;04 - 01;11;05;22
JS
How nice to have him back.

01;11;05;24 - 01;13;50;08
HW
Yes. Most of the time <laugh>. You know, it's funny because I have a friend who was recently
complaining about becoming an empty nester, and I said, don't worry, at some point one will move back
<laugh>. And less than a month later <laugh>. Our next one up is, Becky is—Becky is a foreign
exchange student from China. We [pause] there was a—I’m forgetting the professor's name. In the
beginning of August, he sent out among our faculty and our staff that there was a foreign exchange
student coming from Beijing who had lost their host family. And was there anybody that could host this
student? And so, I talked to my wife about it that night, and we stepped up and said, yes. And so, I had to
turn my office back into a bedroom. And we had basically three weeks, and so Becky came, she had been
pushing the envelope of what the rules of this foreign exchange was. She meant to high school, but
technically she's already graduated in China. So, she spent that year applying to schools. And so, I would
spend that time driving her around. And so, she got accepted and went to Mount Holyoke. And so, she
would fly in, you know, in August, we would pick her up at the airport and we would take her to Mount


Harold Williams
81

Holyoke. We would pick her up for Thanksgiving, would have her at our Thanksgiving. And so, she
basically became another member of our family. So, she did that. Then she took a year off. She taught
English to students in Ecuador for six months. It's like I said, Chinese students teaching English, to
Spanish kids. And then she applied to Harvard Law School, and she got in there. And so, she would fly
back in, I would drive to Boston <laugh> and did that. So, and in fact, she actually ended up meeting
somebody and getting married. And his parents didn't understand the relationship we had, and so I
actually walked her down the aisle because her parents couldn't get back for the wedding. But she called
us mom and dad still, and that's been—she graduated high school in 2005, so it's been almost 20 years.

JS
Wow. That’s a great story.

01;13;53;10 - 01;14;18;00
HW
And then we have two more kids. One's married to a guy in the Air Force and stationed in Albuquerque,
New Mexico. And the other one’s a teacher in Virginia, just outside D.C. And my wife and I will be
taking a vacation. We're flying to Albuquerque, staying there for a week, and then we're driving to L.A. to
stay with our daughter, Becky. So, it's.

JS
Wow.



Harold Williams
82

GN
All right. Yeah.

01;14;18;01 - 01;14;26;25
HW
And so, Becky’s thoroughly ours because of Marist.

01;14;26;28 - 01;14;28;17
JS
Very rich.

01;14;28;19 - 01;14;30;08
GN
Well, thank you so much.

01;14;30;08 - 01;14;31;19
HW

You’re welcome. And I’m sorry for babbling on about—

01;14;31;19 - 01;14;37;20


Harold Williams
83

JS
No, we asked the questions. We’re glad to—we’re grateful for all of it. We really appreciate it. Thank you,
Harry.

01;14;37;21 - 01;14;38;23
HW

You're welcome.

END OF INTERVIEW