Roger Norton

Marist College
Poughkeepsie, NY
Transcribed by Kyra Walker
For the Marist College Archives and Special Collections


















Roger Norton






Transcript – Roger Norton
Interviewee:
Roger Norton
Interviewer:
Gus Nolan
Interview Date:
13 July 2009
Location:
Marist Archives and Special Collections
Topic:
Marist College History
See Also:
MHP – Oral History
http://library.marist.edu/archives/oral_history.html

Subject Headings:
Norton, Roger

Marist Brothers—United States—History
Marist College—History
Marist College (Poughkeepsie, N.Y.)
Marist College—Social Aspects

Summary:

Roger Norton looks back on his time as both a dean and professor at Marist College. He also
shares his views on the changes Marist College has undergone through the years and his opinions
on the college’s path.








Gus Nolan (
00:00:03
):
Today is July 13th, it is a Monday. We're interviewing Dr. Roger Norton, the dean of the School of
Computer Science and Mathematics. Good morning, Roger.
Roger Norton (
00:00:14
):
Good morning, Gus.
GN (
00:00:16
):
Roger, as you know, this is an interview for the archives of the Marist College Library; and I'm
interviewing people who have been here a good number of years, and you certainly make that
qualification. But let's go back to the beginning. Could you give me a short overview of such things as:
where you grew up, the schools you attended-high school, college? Can we start with that?
RN (
00:00:41
):
Sure.
GN (
00:00:42
):
No dates are necessary [laughter]
RN (
00:00:46
):
[Laughter] Right, no dates necessary. Well, I was born in Lowell, Massachusetts in 1953 and I lived in
Lowell until third grade, and then in third grade my family moved to Chelmsford, Massachusetts, which
is the town adjacent. to Lowell
GN (
00:01:05
):
And next to Tyngsborough, Massachusetts.
RN (
00:01:06
):
And next to Tyngsborough, Massachusetts.
GN (
00:01:08
):
A very familiar place to Marist.
RN (
00:01:09
):
Absolutely. And, matter of fact, I did some training at that place at one particular point in my life. So I
finished school-
GN (
00:01:19
):
So grade school in Lowell?
RN (
00:01:21
):
No. I moved to Chelmsford in third grade, so I started going to public school in Chelmsford in third
grade. I finished grade school and high school in Chelmsford, Massachusetts.


GN (
00:01:35
):
And then high school, was it at the same place?
RN (
00:01:39
):
Highschool, yes. Chelmsford, yes.
GN (
00:01:40
):
And after that, did you have any military experience?
RN (
00:01:45
):
Yes, I did. And in fact...so I graduated high school in 1971. I joined the Air Force. And at that time I was
dating a lovely woman by the name Cheryl Firth. And since I was going in the military, we decided that
we would...we had always planned on getting married, but a number of years later we decided to get
married before I went into the Air Force. So that while I was in training...I was going to be trained for
over a year down in Biloxi, Mississippi, she would be able to come and join me down there after I went
to basic training and so forth. So we actually got married before I went into the service. She was still in
high school as a matter of fact. She was...we got married in April. She was finishing her senior year in
high school. We got married before I went in the service. We stayed at my parents and I used to get up
in the morning and walk her to the bus stop and kiss her goodbye for school. But then I went into the
military. I arrived in Lackland Air Force base on a Friday night and on Sunday they told me I was being
discharged. I have..I actually have two congenital issues with my spine, which I never knew about. I have
spina bifida and I also have spondylosis. So, I was being sent home on Sunday and it took them about an
additional two weeks to get me discharged. But I was discharged from the Air Force with a honorable
discharge. So it took me just two weeks to do my service to the country. [Laughter]
GN (
00:03:24
):
The shortest military that I ever recorded.
RN (
00:03:28
):
And so I came home a veteran.
GN (
00:03:30
):
And what about, the next level of academic? Did you go to college after that?
RN (
00:03:37
):
So first of all, I came home from the Air Force a married man to the shock of my wife's parents who
thought that, well, at least he's going to be in the service for the next four years. I came home
unemployed and so my brother, who was a nurse, actually ran what was called the Emergency Room
Corpsman in Cape Cod at the Hyannis Hospital. So he hired me to come down there to be an emergency
room corpsmen at the hospital with no training whatsoever. And so I started working at the hospital in
Hyannis and why I was there at the hospital, I started taking courses at Cape Cod Community College. I
stayed on Cape Cod for about a year and a half. And then, initially just taking a couple of night courses,
and then I actually started going full time. And did about a year's worth at Cape Cod Community College
and then transferred it to the University of Massachusetts in Amherst. I started out actually as a major in
nursing since I was working as an emergency room corpsman. I then switched to journalism. I then


switched to secondary education and I then finally switched to mathematics, which is where I got my
undergraduate degree in mathematics from the University of Massachusetts.
GN (
00:05:06
):
During this time, did you have other interests? Activities, sports or [inaudible] or hobbies or you're just
too busy working and supporting your wife?
RN (
00:05:15
):
No, I was always interested in art and photography. I was the president of the photography club. I was
also one of the officers of the Explorers Club. The Explorer's Club, we did various different types of
activities. Whitewater rafting, cross country skiing--so every year we did multiple, you know, different
types of trips.
GN (
00:05:40
):
Now was this out of Chelmsford or out of Cape Cod where you were doing this?
RN (
00:05:45
):
Well, both out of... in college, I did that in college. I also was a member of the...there was a cross
country team, but it was a club team which I belonged to. So I also did running, I did cross country
running and played...I played tennis. I played tennis for my entire life.
GN (
00:06:10
):
Which is still an interest that you have.
RN (
00:06:11
):
Which is still an interest, although I haven't played for a while.
GN (
00:06:14
):
Move on from a...you have an undergraduate degree. When did you start graduate school?
RN (
00:06:22
):
Actually, no. I started graduate school actually at the University of Massachusetts. I graduated early
from the University of Massachusetts. I graduated in the middle of the year and they took me on as a
graduate student. I actually received a fellowship. I stayed there for a semester during the spring
semester as a graduate student while I was applying to different graduate schools. So I applied to about
six different graduate schools, got into all of them except for one and ended up choosing Brandeis
University. I went to Brandeis University in a PhD program in mathematics. It was from Brandeis where I
came to Marist College. I came to Marist College as a faculty member in mathematics. But when I left
Brandeis, I was basically all but dissertation and when I was here, I was finishing my dissertation. But
during my first year here, it was clear that Marist College was heading down this path of computers. And
I had always been interested in computers. When I was an undergraduate, I took a number of computer
courses when I was at Brandeis and I took some computer courses. I bought one of the first personal
computers ever available for the general public. And so I decided that, well this would be something
interesting to do. So I started taking some courses at Marist that were often by Syracuse University.
Syracuse used to...back in the early ages they had a graduate program here and they would actually fly


their faculty down here to the Dutchess Airport and they would come and teach their courses. So it was
an adjunct faculty with Syracuse faculty. So I started taking some courses there and I started thinking,
you know, this is really what I would like to do.
GN (
00:08:14
):
What year was this?
RN (
00:08:16
):
1981.
GN (
00:08:17
):
1981. Dennis Murray was in place then.
RN (
00:08:20
):
Dennis Murray, yes. I came here in 1980, Dennis came in 1979. And so I started taking those courses.
Some of the faculty members talked to me about coming to Syracuse. I told them I was finishing my PhD
at Brandeis in mathematics and they said, well you know you can transfer all your stuff over. And so I did
indeed do that and I transferred all my credits over from Brandeis to Syracuse. However, it obviously
wasn't as easy as that because at Brandeis I had passed four qualifying examinations, a preliminary
examination and those things were not transferred over, so I had to do the same thing at Syracuse. And
so I had to prepare for all the examinations that they had. So, it took me multiple years after that in
order for me to finish my PhD in computer science.
GN (
00:09:17
):
Fill me in on the teaching experience. Did you just walk out of graduate school and start teaching or was
there, did you have an assistantship somewhere in teaching at Brandeis or at University of Mass? How
did you get to be a teacher?
RN (
00:09:32
):
I taught at the University of Massachusetts for one semester. I taught two courses in calculus with
business applications or some sort of a name like that. And at Brandeis... so the way in which Brandeis
worked is your first year at Brandeis, you didn't teach, but then during your second and third year you
taught and then during your fourth year you didn't teach. So I taught for two years at Brandeis. And at
Brandeis, all the graduate students taught the same course. We are taught calculus in the fall. We
taught Calc One, in the spring we taught Calc Two. So I had taught at Brandeis for two years before
coming here to Marist. I had also...during the time at Brandeis, one of my...my oldest daughter was
born. And so to make some additional money, I had done some adjunct teaching. I adjuncted at Suffolk
College I adjuncted at Merrimack Community College. So I had done some teaching before I arrived here
at Marist College.
GN (
00:10:31
):
Okay. When you came to Marist, what was the contact? Did you see an ad in the paper or did someone
make...give you a clue there was a position open ,and what was the position you were coming to?
RN (
00:10:44
):


Yeah, I did a standard search available at that time in terms of looking for positions. The access to the
Internet wasn't the way in which you did it, but there was the publications of the Mathematical
Association of America. And it published all the jobs that were out there. And I applied for numerous
jobs and I went on a number of interviews and I came here to Marist College. Marist College was a very
interesting interview because I came here and I met only one person. I met John Ritschdorff. John
Ritschdorff was the chair of the Department of Mathematics at that time. I came in, I interviewed with
John Ritschdorff. I actually met...but just briefly, I didn't really have an interview, it was just sort of a
meeting in passing with the academic vice president at the time. And the academic vice president when
I came for the interview was Louis Zuccarello. And so those were the only two people I met. And really
the interview was done by John. I left, and I was then offered the position. I did some negotiating
associated with that position and ended up accepting the position, and came here to Marist College.
GN (
00:12:08
):
And you moved from Massachusetts to Highland, New York?
RN (
00:12:11
):
I moved from Massachusetts to actually Hyde Park, New York. We initially rented in Hyde Park. It's
Estates, which is across from the Aims or whatever is currently up there. I guess there's nothing up there
now. So we lived there for maybe about two years. Then we moved over to Highland and we rented a
townhouse. We rented that townhouse for about two years. Then we bought the townhouse that we
were renting and lived there for an additional perhaps two years. And then we bought a place in Hyde
Park and spent 16 years in Hyde Park, which is really where my children grew up and went to school and
so forth. And I currently live in Rhinebeck.
GN (
00:12:55
):
Okay. Coming to Marist, let's talk about that, in terms of... you mentioned the interview was rather
simple compared to the way they it do now. You didn't have to make a presentation,
RN (
00:13:06
):
[Laughter] Yeah, no. I didn't do any presentations.
GN (
00:13:09
):
Right. The job you were taking was a mathematical job?
RN (
00:13:14
):
Yes. I was hired. I came here as an instructor in mathematics. At that time, I hadn't finished my PhD. I
didn't have a PhD at the...when I came here to Marist.
GN (
00:13:26
):
Did you have a master's degree?
RN (
00:13:28
):
Oh yes. I had my masters.
GN (
00:13:29
):


So that was in place. And then, what was the teaching load that you were going to be...do you recall
that?
RN (
00:13:38
):
Yes.
GN (
00:13:38
):
Probably four courses a semester. Well maybe six?
RN (
00:13:42
):
Yeah no, I believe it was four courses per semester. And when I came, my original office was in the
Fontaine Building That's where the Mathematics Department was. I actually...you're looking quizzical.
GN (
00:14:00
):
Yes, the library was here, and it was the upstairs of the library. That was the Fontane if I recall.
RN (
00:14:05
):
And that's where mathematics was. And then up on the third floor in that building were the history
faculty. That's where history was. So, Vinny Tuscano up there-
GN (
00:14:17
):
Roscoe Balch more than likely
RN (
00:14:18
):
Roscoe Balch.
GN (
00:14:19
):
Louis Zuccarello probably eventually went back there.
RN (
00:14:22
):
Yes. As a matter of fact, I mentioned that Louis Zuccarello was the academic vice president when I came
for the interview. When I arrived on campus in September, the academic vice president was Andrew
Malloy. And so, Andy came as the academic vice president the same year I came as a faculty member.
But yes, so the teaching load was four courses. I taught a good number of introductory courses. But I
mentioned earlier that part of my interview or accepting the position, I did do a negotiation in that...in
my contract it was, they had to give me one upper level course each semester in mathematics. Which is,
I didn't want to come here and just teach first year courses. So that was actually in my contract. So I
taught one upper level course each semester.
GN (
00:15:14
):
How big was the student body majors in mathematics,
RN (
00:15:18
):


Oh, majors in mathematics? Very, very small. We probably had...I would say, graduating seniors, we're
probably talking about less than a dozen students. So less than a dozen each year.
GN (
00:15:34
):
But the core was in place, wasn't it?
RN (
00:15:36
):
Pardon me?
GN (
00:15:37
):
The core program was in? Everybody had to take some math in their first year and second year.
RN (
00:15:42
):
Right. Everybody...now, the core that existed when I came here is not the core that exists now. So during
the early eighties that's when the new core was actually introduced. So I was here and got to vote on
them on the new core.
GN (
00:15:57
):
Were you here for the 60/60?
RN (
00:16:00
):
the 60/60?
GN (
00:16:01
):
Yeah. 60 credits was selective and 60 credits was appointed by the department. That was an original
core. It was the program or it was the curriculum. I don't know if you would call it a core.
RN (
00:16:14
):
Yes, but that's what was here when I arrived.
GN (
00:16:17
):
I see. And then we moved to selected courses that had to be taken in science. A man had an influence, I
suppose?
RN (
00:16:25
):
Right. Yes, absolutely. Xavier Ryan was very involved at that time in terms of-
GN (
00:16:31
):
How do we know that we know?
RN (
00:16:33
):
How do we know that we know? The modes of consciousness.
GN (
00:16:37
):


Yes. Right. And then literature of course had...foreign language, it was always iffy. Sometimes you had to
take it and sometimes you didn't.
RN (
00:16:45
):
For instance in mathematics, when the new core was implemented...I'm trying to think of when that was
voted in. It was-
GN (
00:16:53
):
It's very foggy for me. I couldn't-
RN (
00:16:56
):
'83/'84, somewhere around that time. So the change took place rather quickly. When I came here, when
I arrived, they were discussing the changes in the core. But when the new core came in mathematics,
you were required to take two courses in mathematics. However, you could replace the second course
in mathematics by an intermediate level foreign language. So that's how foreign language actually got
in.
GN (
00:17:22
):
And that's how it survived, yeah. That was about the only way that foreign language was going to
survive. They'd rather take that than two courses in math. Other responsibilities outside of teaching?
You had advisement of course. That would have been one of-
RN (
00:17:35
):
Yeah, there was advisement. And one of the things that I somehow got involved in early on--I don't
remember how exactly it happened--is I worked for the Learning Center. I was hired as what was called
a S.A.P coordinator. S.A.P stood for Special Academic Programs and basically S.A.P was our prison
programs. And our prison programs were very, very active at that time. We had programs in just about
every prison around. And so as the S.A-
GN (
00:18:07
):
Actually 50% of the Marist student body was incarcerated.
RN (
00:18:11
):
[Laughter] It could have been at that time.
GN (
00:18:12
):
Yes. Stephanie gave me that figure some time ago. I couldn't get over it.
RN (
00:18:18
):
And yeah, it was a very profitable program for Marist College at the time. And so as S.A.P coordinator,
what I would do is...one or two nights a week, I would go to a prison and I would observe a faculty
member teaching a mathematics course, and I would do a write up on that faculty member. So I was
sort of the connection from Marist College to the prison programs in the area of math.
GN (
00:18:48
):


Keeping it authentic so that some mathematics was going on.
RN (
00:18:52
):
Yeah, making certain that it was indeed a quality program. And it actually it was a quality program. The
faculty teaching in that program were actually very good. And a number of the faculty I remember back
then ended up working as adjuncts on the main campus here. And the important thing that I actually
learned from that program as being the special academic program for the prisons is that if you're going
to get arrested, make certain you go to a federal prison. Because oh, the state prisons are not a fun
place to be.
GN (
00:19:23
):
Okay. other responsibilities...I recall you lecturing at noontime at luncheons and things in a bio lab. Do
you recall those kinds of things? There was a blackboard there and you readily went up and-
RN (
00:19:35
):
It's very difficult for me to speak without a blackboard in front of me. And so when I came here to Marist
College, 95% of the courses were taught in Donnelly. Donnelley was where all the-
GN (
00:19:52
):
The academic program took place.
RN (
00:19:53
):
Academic programs. I mean, there were a couple of classrooms in Fontaine, there was one in the
Student Center, but most classes were actually taught in Donnelley. So Donnelley was the hub of
activity. And when I arrived here in 1980, I think there were somewhere around 75 faculty members and
somewhere around 1200 undergraduate students. And so we were a small college and so Donnelley was
the hub and lunchtime, there was a group of people who congregated in the biology lab for lunch in
Donnelley and I was one of those people who frequented there quite a few times a week. And if-
GN (
00:20:38
):
I remember visiting it also, and it used to be a great interchange of all kinds of ideas that took place
there. And I just recall you lecturing at the board while I was having my sandwich. And it was very
interesting. I don't know what you was saying, but it was very-
RN (
00:20:53
):
I don't know what I was saying either. But certainly the thing about mathematics--if somebody asked a
question about mathematics--sometimes the best way to illustrate it is to draw a picture. It's sometimes
difficult to explain without going to the board. So lots of times if I was involved in a conversation and
mathematics became part of it, I tended to utilize the board [laughter].
GN (
00:21:19
):
You've just moved into this next subject. I'm not sure that you saw this outline that I sent you about
what we were going to do today. But the historical view now...we're saying you've been here one year
less than Murray, which is like 29 years, almost 30 years. There are different topics I'd like to talk about-
the place, the faculty, student body, curriculum. But starting where we are now...there was a great


collegiality I felt in those days, in your first years here. Did you feel that, and has there been much of a
change in the development of the college since? How would you that?
RN (
00:22:05
):
Yeah, I would say that...you knew more faculty back in the early days. But simply because of the fact
that everybody taught, at least some time during the day, in Donnelley. So you saw the faculty. At this
particular point, Marist College has grown tremendously. We all have our own buildings...and so we
teach and we work and we live in our own buildings. But if you come to my building and you go to
what's called the Canton Room at lunchtime, the faculty will be in there having lunch and discussing, and
people will be up on the board. So the same thing happens, it just happens on a much smaller scale
because of the fact that we're all much more isolated than we were in the past. So I don't believe that
the faculty were more collegial back in 1980 as compared to now. I just believe that the opportunities
because of the size of Marist College, it makes it difficult for that to occur.
GN (
00:23:12
):
Okay. You've seen the transformation of the campus...speak a few ideas that come to mind about that.
What impresses you most about this development of the campus? Where to begin?
RN (
00:23:30
):
Yeah, I mean, when I came here in 1980 everybody parked down below the hill from the old library,
currently where our beautiful grounds are that overlook the river. That was a massive parking lot.
Everybody parked there, walked up the stairs, going to their appropriate buildings. and Marist was on
the verge of...perhaps collapse. Marist...the buildings were rundown, the facilities were not the greatest
facilities at the time. The library was wanting, and there were numerous issues associated with Marist. I
came to Marist College for a...I took a two year position here while I was finishing up my PhD. My intent
was never to stay long term, but of course I did nine years later. But part of that was that...there was
always something on the horizon at Marist College. So when I came here, we had no program in
computer science, and I was interested in computer science. But we were going to start a new program
in computer science. I wanted to be part of starting a new program in computer science and so I stayed.
Then I was in Fontaine, then they were going to be moving us over to Donnelley and they were going to
be building new facilities for us over in Donnelly. I moved over into Donnelly. Then they were going to
be building the Lowell Thomas building. We were going to be moving into Lowell Thomas. We started a
graduate program in Computer Science and Information Systems. And so...there were always new things
on the horizon here at Marist College. I mean, to be perfectly honest, when I first came here to Marist
College, I didn't necessarily see Marist College as a lifelong thing and that they were going to be new
opportunities here at Marist College. But that did indeed happen. I mean one of the disadvantages I
think that the new faculty here at Marist College have as compared to us older faculty is that they've
come to Marist College during...sort of the boom years and they see Marist College as it currently is and
they think that this is what it's always been. And they don't realize the struggles, the sacrifices, the
commitment of the people here at Marist College to get Marist College where Marist College currently
is.
GN (
00:26:17
):
If I recall, there was some discussions in faculty meetings now and again that was sometimes a little hot
and...well argumentative I might say.


RN (
00:26:29
):
In the old days? [laughter]
GN (
00:26:30
):
Yes, in the Donnelley Hall, around center.. on all kinds of subjects I guess. The curriculum would be one
thing. Sports programs would be another. Another was...how many courses and privileges that certain
students had...and all of this kinds of things.
RN (
00:26:50
):
Yeah. I mean, that existed then and it exists now. I was very much involved in--before I became an
administrator--I was very much involved in all those political discussions. I was the chair of the Faculty
Affairs Committee. Chair of the Negotiating Team, was the president of the Marist College Faculty
Association. If you remember the Marist College Faculty Association?
GN (
00:27:12
):
Yes, I do.
RN (
00:27:13
):
So...which is something that I kind of miss because it had a nice social component associated with that.
So twice a year we'd have a nice event down at the Hudson River State Hospital. Which you actually
arranged I think through your connections from people at the hospital? Those were nice events. We
don't have those events.
GN (
00:27:36
):
So what growth and development...we do lose something of that social compatibility on the total. I
mean, you may have it in your department since, but you don't have so much cross action. I'll fast
forward. What do you think about the stadium. Was that a good idea? The building of the football
stadium in terms of the development of the college?
RN (
00:27:59
):
Well, what we had there was...I think it was embarrassing. I mean, it looked like a high school...it looked
worse than my high school stadium at Chelmsford High School. And so, we either had to decide to get
out of field sports like, you know soccer and football, or do something with that stadium. I think what
we have there now is quite nice.
GN (
00:28:28
):
Yeah. Oh, I do too. Yeah. But a $9 million investment...I'll tell you the truth, when a survey came around
about this, it was not a high priority on my list. That we would build a stadium ahead of faculty housing
or...there was some plan for a building on the river, I forget exactly what kind of name they put on it.
But moving ahead to that now, what do you think about the Hancock Building? Are you looking forward
to being involved in that?
RN (
00:28:59
):
Of course. I've got a beautiful office there. We have great facilities. Our faculty have great facilities
there. There's going to be our own data center there. I mean, it's going to be a state of the art


technology building. But not only for my school, but also for other schools. It's going to be a beautiful
building. It is something that Marist College needs. We needed an academic building.
GN (
00:29:26
):
I was surprised to learn that there are no new students coming in as a result of this building. It's really
space to do what we're already doing.
RN (
00:29:34
):
Oh yeah. I mean, the strategic plan--which we're now at the end of the strategic plan--but in terms of
growth, part of the strategic plan said that there was going to be minimal growth at Marist College. And
you know, I'm on the cabinet and so I'm involved in these discussions related to what sort of growth
does Marist want. And Marist really wasn't looking for growth over these past few years. We just simply
wanted to keep our-
GN (
00:30:05
):
Solidify our position?
RN (
00:30:06
):
Yes. I mean just...keep the numbers the same. I mean our budgets were based upon minimal growth,
and most of the time actually zero growth.
GN (
00:30:17
):
What about the student body now? Have you seen a drastic change or is it pretty much the same? How
do you see it?
RN (
00:30:23
):
No, it's a drastic change.
GN (
00:30:25
):
Oh, is it?
RN (
00:30:26
):
Oh, absolutely. A drastic change.
GN (
00:30:28
):
In what way now?
RN (
00:30:29
):
The...when I came here to Marist College in 1980; there were certainly students who were very, very
competent...were very, very strong. But there were students at the other end of the spectrum which
were extremely weak. And so what I think has really happened is we have...if you looked at the standard
deviation between the abilities of our students in 1980, it was a much larger standard deviation.
GN (
00:31:05
):


I'm sorry. I don't have a blackboard here, but can you keep on? [Laughter]
RN (
00:31:08
):
And so it was a much more heterogeneous group of students who range from the very good to the very
poor. And so I believe that really what has happened over the years is that we've sort of narrowed that
gap. So if you look at the difference between our best student and our worst student, it is not anywhere
near where it used to be in 1980. And 1980...if you look at the acceptance rate at Marist College, I mean
we were practically open enrollments. And we are now at this particular point, we're considered in the
top 8% of selective schools in the country. And so there's been a huge change. One of the things as a
faculty member, I had been an adjunct faculty at Vassar for seven years before I became the
administrator. So--usually at least once a year and sometimes once a semester--I taught at Vassar
college and I taught the same courses there that I taught here just...you know, at Vassar. And the one
thing that I always said about the difference between students at Vassar and the students at Marist was
that our best students at Marist College could easily compete with the best students at Vassar. There
was no issues about that. However, our worst students at Marist college would really have a difficult
time in terms of surviving at Vassar. I believe at this particular point that that has really narrowed and
that our worst students...they can also survive at Vassar College. So we've really narrowed that gap,
which I think is in some ways good but of course in some ways it's bad.
GN (
00:32:53
):
So that's the academic level. How about the spirit of the students and overall...the value system, if you
can say that. Pretty much the same?
RN (
00:33:03
):
No.
GN (
00:33:03
):
Does Marist draw a-
RN (
00:33:06
):
Yeah, different type of student. When I came here in 1980...one of the things that we used to do--I don't
know whether we stopped doing it or they stopped giving us the information--but one of the things that
we used to do is what was called the freshman profile. That would profile our students. And I remember
when I was here in the early eighties, our students...the majority of our students were first time college
bound students in terms of their families, and that they viewed Marist College as a training for them to
get a job. They weren't planning on going on to professional schools. They weren't planning on going on
and getting a doctorate. They were coming here to prepare for a job and that's what their parents saw
Marist College about. And if you look at our freshmen profile now--although I haven't seen a complete
report like we used to have in the past--but our students...a lot more of our students go on to graduate
schools, go on to professional schools, medical schools, law schools. Our students aren't coming from
your first generation college bound students. Their parents are executives in companies, are doctors and
lawyers. And so our students have a much more intellectual curiosity than they did in the early 1980s.
GN (
00:34:37
):
Good. What about the core? Do you have an interest in revising the core for these students who are
now more capable?


RN (
00:34:47
):
Oh yeah, absolutely. I think the core...the core has been around--as I said--I don't remember what year it
was, 1983. It's about time that we changed the core. But, I remember that when I came here, the core
was being discussed and it was being discussed for at least three or four years while I was here in the
beginning before we voted on it. So it is a very, very controversial type thing to tackle. Everybody has
their favorite thing that they believe must be in the core. And getting around that is going to be...it's
going to be difficult. But I believe that it's certainly time that we changed the core.
GN (
00:35:27
):
Okay. Moving on to some other areas...you now, in terms of your own development. You taught for a
good number of years and now you've been an administrator. Which do you prefer?
RN (
00:35:42
):
Well, I taught for a good number of years, but also fairly early on I took on administrative
responsibilities. I was the director for the Marist College Center for Information Systems for numerous
year in which we contracted with state agencies in terms of providing them technology support. My
team here at Marist College installed the first local area network in New York state for our New York
state. I was...as I said, I was the...I worked for special academic programs. I was certainly involved on
committees...every elected committee that exists here at Marist College I was on at one point. I also was
the director of the Center for Distributed Systems. So I'd always done some sort of administrative things
on the side. And I think what got me interested in becoming the dean was that I was sort of put in
charge of our program in Information Technology and I really had some major goals associated with that
particular program. But being a faculty member who sort of somewhat was in charge, it really
became...it was really difficult. I didn't really have control over hiring and working with the faculty
directly. And so my interest in terms of getting into administration on the level of full-time
administration...was really in terms of developing a quality program in Information Technology.
GN (
00:37:26
):
And could you expound on that? What do you see yourself...the role of the dean is to do what?
RN (
00:37:34
):
Well, I believe that a dean is not supposed to be functioning as a department chair. I mean I'm not
supposed to be responsible for scheduling classes and monitoring day-to-day type activities. A dean is
really supposed to be...even in terms of--I was here when we voted on the creation of deans. The deans
were supposed to be sort of the external face of the school, and that they were supposed to be involved
in terms of bringing in money. They were supposed to be...in terms of grants, in terms of gifts. They
were also supposed to be involved in helping the faculty...steering the faculty down the appropriate
paths with respect to different types of programs and so forth. But I never saw the dean's position as
being a position of just simply administrating existing programs. That wasn't my job.
GN (
00:38:33
):
Is evaluation of teachers or professors a responsibility?
RN (
00:38:36
):
Absolutely. Oh yes. Absolutely.


GN (
00:38:39
):
It is. Hiring and firing is also...that?
RN (
00:38:42
):
Hiring and firing...yes. Now of course, all those things are done working with the faculty. I don't fire
anybody or hire anybody without seeing...having a committee involved on that. In terms of the hiring
process...I do it the same way I've done since I've been the dean and...a committee is created, the
committee decides on who they're going to interview. I look at the applications that come in and I may
say, have you looked at this person? And I may try to give them some, some guidance or opinions and
they may take it or leave it. But then, what they do is they submit to me. I always ask for three names.
Submit to me three names. Don't rank those people, just give me the three names. And then-
GN (
00:39:39
):
You interview them?
RN (
00:39:40
):
Oh, yes. I interview them.
GN (
00:39:41
):
Do you see them teach?
RN (
00:39:43
):
I see them teach, yes.
GN (
00:39:44
):
You do. Okay. Again, projection---future. Will you be here 10 years from now?
RN (
00:39:55
):
10 years? [Laughter] Well, I just turned 56 and so 10 years from now I'll be 66. What's the-
GN (
00:40:04
):
65. Social Security?
RN (
00:40:06
):
I thought it was 67 now. I think it's-
GN (
00:40:07
):
Oh, for you guys. True.
RN (
00:40:09
):
I think...I keep on missing out on everything. They always change everything before it affects me. So, I
think that probably somewhere around 60, 61, 62 something like that...I see myself stepping back into
the faculty and becoming a full time faculty member. And-


GN (
00:40:35
):
So you still enjoy teaching?
RN (
00:40:37
):
Oh, absolutely.
GN (
00:40:38
):
Are you actively involved in teaching now?
RN (
00:40:41
):
Yes. I don't teach every semester or even every year, but I do indeed continue to teach and I plan on
actually teaching a course in the spring.
GN (
00:40:54
):
Do you teach undergraduate as well as graduate?
RN (
00:40:57
):
Yes. Since I've been the dean, I think I've only taught undergraduate courses.
GN (
00:41:05
):
Okay. On this 10 year...project Marist College in your mind's view. Where do you see the college 10
years from now?
RN (
00:41:15
):
Yeah. I mean, I believe that Marist College's right there at the precipice of becoming a truly strong
nationally recognized institution, we already have that to a certain level. I think that in 10 years, Marist
College will be known nationally. One of the things that I do is I'm what's called an ABET evaluate. ABET
is Accreditation Board for Engineering Technology. I go and I visit colleges and universities and look at
their programs in computer science, and information technology, and information systems to see
whether they meet the qualifications of ABET. And so I travel around the country quite a bit and I'll go to
some place in Idaho and I'll introduce myself and I'll say Marist College, they have no idea about Marist
College. Now if I was there and I said I was from Vassar College, they would know what Vassar College is.
And so I think in 10 years--if I'm still doing my ABET visits-- I believe when I go to these places, a lot more
of those places are going to know about Marist College then they do now.
GN (
00:42:32
):
What would cause that lift? What will be the next...is it faculty? Published papers? Academic programs?
What's going to bring that national vision--or national attention to us in this development that you see?
RN (
00:42:47
):
Yeah, I think it's a combination of all those things. I'll talk about my own program. In my program, the
students coming into our program are strong. They're one of the strongest groups here at Marist College
in terms of what their grade point averages in high school and what their sat school scores are. So the
students are very strong. The faculty in my school are extremely committed. I have faculty who literally


have international reputations with respect to their publications. Craig Fisher, for instance, was the
president of the MIT Information Quality Conference. Eitel Lauria was recognized in Argentina with a
presidential award from the president of Argentina. So you have strong faculty who are known
internationally and nationally. Our students--when they graduate--they need to be moving on to
positions where they're going to have an influence on the perception of Marist College. Within the past
two years I've had three of my prior students who graduated with...within the past seven years...
become vice presidents. The vice president at Goldman Sachs, the vice president at Morgan Stanley. We
have graduates of our program whose general manager at IBM. So the students need to be moving out
into positions, and you'll also need to be bringing in external funding from nationally recognized
organizations. This past year, my school brought in over a million dollars’ worth of external funding from
the National Science Foundation. Marist College was picked to create a community called the ECC
community--Enterprise Computing Community. We are running a national community associated with
looking at the undergraduate curriculum in computer science. Members of this community...we have
over 500 members of this community. Marist College is the center of this community. We are the ones
receiving funding. We have Illinois State University, University of Arkansas. We have...'m trying to think
of all the universities...
GN (
00:45:14
):
Well how did we get there? Did you apply for this yourself?
RN (
00:45:19
):
Yes. I applied for this.
GN (
00:45:20
):
And you gave...these are the parameters under which we can work and this is what we have to show
you?
RN (
00:45:25
):
So, you applied to this...I always talk about grants...they're always going to look for--what have you done
so far? Don't come to me and tell us you've got a good idea and if you only had the money you'd be able
to do it. If you haven't done anything prior to this, then you're not going to get the money. So we've
done a lot with respect to enterprise computing. I mean, when the National Science Foundation says
that Marist College is a school in which they want to lead a national community in this particular area. I
mean, it clearly says that Marist College is recognized in this particular area. So we need to do this for all
the programs here at Marist College and we have a number of programs I believe are at that level. And I
believe that in 10 years all of our programs will be at that level.
GN (
00:46:25
):
On the same point--in the development area, do you see...well it's related to technology and the
advantages therein, but how about distance learning? Is this going to be part of our shtick?
RN (
00:46:40
):
A critical part of Marist College's future. Marist College...in terms of our traditional undergraduate
population, we're pretty darn close to the max in terms of what Marist college can actually handle.
However, in terms of Marist College moving to that next level, we need to generate more revenue than


that. We're not a very old college. I forget what the number is, but 50% of our alumni graduated within
the past-
GN (
00:47:19
):
Twenty years.
RN (
00:47:20
):
Yeah. And so we don't have this large network of alumni in terms of giving. So the ability for Marist
College to develop an endowment at the level of...like a Vassar, is very, very difficult for us to do. And it
was especially even more difficult over the past 30 years because of the fact that our physical facilities
here at Marist College were in such disrepair. And that any money that came into the college, we
couldn't take that money and put it into endowment. It had to go into our physical plant. And that's also
one of the things that kind of bothers me about new faculty is they say-well how come our endowment
isn't higher? Why hasn't the president or the administration been out there trying to increase our
endowment? Well, if we took all the money that Marist College brought in over the past 30 years and
put that into our endowment; we'd have a significant endowment, but we would have those rundown
facilities that existed when I came here in 1980. And so what you need to do when you look at Marist
College endowment, you really need to look at what we have in terms of our money and what we have
in terms of our physical plant. And our physical plant is, I mean, I don't even know how many times
better than it was in 1980. And so since we don't have that endowment, we need to generate additional
revenues. And the way for us to generate additional revenues is through graduate programs, certificate
programs, and through an online vehicle. It's something we can accommodate. And not only is it
something that we can accommodate, it's something that Marist College is good at in terms of the
technology. You know, we are in the top 25 of colleges and universities in the country with respect to
our technology infrastructure. So we have the technology to do it. We have the faculty who are skilled at
doing it. We were the first college in New York state to have a fully online AACSB accredited program in
business. So we've been doing it for a long time and we can continue to do it, and I think that we can
add some revenue to the college that really helps our traditional undergraduate programs.
GN (
00:50:00
):
Right. But most of this would have to be...the online distance learning would be for graduate programs.
You wouldn't have too much undergraduates taking courses and never leaving their home.
RN (
00:50:14
):
It depends. I am totally against--and I know that there are people on the cabinet who disagree with me--
but I am totally against having traditional age undergraduate students enroll in online programs. I mean,
to me, when I sent my children off to college--I mean certainly a big part of it was associated with
getting an education--but also a big part of it was that socialization of living on a campus, getting
involved in different types of activities. I think that that portion of our students undergraduate degree is
just as important as the academic part. And so I would hate for that to disappear. It's a great way for a
child to go from living at home to living totally on their own. It's a great transition time. You also develop
a huge network. So I am totally against having traditional students going into totally online programs.
However, there are cases in which there are students of traditional age that just can't afford to go to
college or can't do it for some particular way. And so maybe them taking courses...a few courses at a
time, that might be fine. But where I see undergraduate programs fitting in, is one of the things that we
were starting in September. We have a number of degree completion programs. So these are for


students who already accumulated a number of credit someplace. Maybe they went to a community
college, maybe they started a college but had to leave for some particular reason. They're not children.
They're adults and most of them are working full time. And so this is an opportunity for them to
complete their degree. So that's an undergraduate degree, but it's really a degree completion program
geared towards adult students. And so I think that's certainly an appropriate place for undergraduate
education online.
GN (
00:52:25
):
Okay. Let's take another subject--how about internships?
RN (
00:52:28
):
Internships?
GN (
00:52:29
):
For undergraduate students.
RN (
00:52:32
):
Yeah. When every year the freshmen come to Marist College and they come here during the summer
and they take different examinations. They meet with different groups. I have my faculty come and they
will talk to the students about what life is like here at college and some of the sessions--it's usually eight
sessions each summer--some of the sessions I take; And when I talked to those students, I talk about
what college life is like. And there are two things that I tell them. While you're here, you must all do
these. Now of course, the students that I'm talking to our students from my school--the computer
science and mathematics and IT and so forth. But I believe that this covers most every other area. The
two things I tell my students to do--while you're here, make certain that you do an internship because
the job market is such that when you're out there looking for, a job, they're not going to just look that
you got a degree and that you got good grades. They want to see that you've actually been able to do
something. And so internships are an absolutely wonderful way to gain that real world experience. And
also in some cases, it's a good way to get your foot in the door. Lots of our students who do internships
end up getting hired by the companies that they work in. So I tell them do an internship and even do
two. The other thing I always tell my students to do--
GN (
00:54:02
):
Well how many credits would you give to that? Is that ten, six, nine, twelve credits an internship?
RN (
00:54:09
):
Actually, a lot of the internships that our students do, they usually do no credits associated with them.
They do them during the summer. Some students will apply for internship credit associated with them,
but we give a maximum of 12 credits towards an internship. But the students aren't necessarily
interested in them because of the credits associated with them.
GN (
00:54:31
):
It's the work experience,
RN (
00:54:32
):


It's the work experience. Well our students, we're also the only school at Marist College in which we
require all our internships to be paid. We do not accept any unpaid internships. And our students work
at Fortune 100 companies. Our students go and work at UBS, Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs, IBM. And
then--so I was saying two things--and the second thing I tell our students to do-is all our students should
do a study abroad. I just believe that's something that should become somehow standard practice here
at Marist College. Maybe when we're looking at the new core
GN (
00:55:16
):
Interesting. Because one of your students a number of years ago--his name was Nolan actually--got a
Fulbright.
RN (
00:55:23
):
Yeah. Tim Nolan, he went to Spain.
GN (
00:55:25
):
And he got it because he was going to teach computer science to Spanish students.
RN (
00:55:32
):
Yeah. And what he was actually going to do also is--while he was over there--working on developing
some technology that would help actually do tutoring. So he was actually teaching English to Spanish
students but utilizing technology. But Tim, certainly one of our star students. Tim now works for an
insurance company in Hartford. I'm trying to think of the name but he's actually been very, very helpful
in terms of hiring additional students. That, again, that's one of the great things about...if your students
do well and they go off and they go to great places...all the places that we have great connections with,
we have those great connections with because we have students who've gone there and become
extremely successful. Morgan Stanley. They come to Marist College, they recruit our students all the
time. We have two vice presidents who graduated from Marist College over the past seven years.
Goldman Sachs--vice president who graduated from Marist College over the past seven years. You know,
obviously IBM, Tim Nolan at whatever the heck the name of that insurance company is. They're there,
and because of the fact that they have good strong memories of Marist College, they want to come back
and they want to help.
GN (
00:56:51
):
Yeah. I talked to a visiting Marist Brother yesterday who, he was here for a weekend retreat with his
group. He came early Friday. He was down by the river taking two hours to rest after the drive up. And
there was a student there who is on the lawn committee cutting the lawn, but he was taking a break.
But he's a senior and he was commenting about how he hates the thought that this is his last year. He
just loves the place. The bonding that has taken place over those three years. Most see it like--you used
to like to get out to get to work, with the exception of the Vietnam War where you used to fail in order
to stay in school. [Laughter]
RN (
00:57:36
):
Well, no. Marist’s a wonderful place to spend four years and it's a beautiful campus. Yeah, absolutely
gorgeous campus.
GN (
00:57:44
):


It's very hard to get into now. I probably would never be able to get in here.
RN (
00:57:48
):
Well, I mean, a lot of people who went here wonder whether they would have been able to get here,
you know get in had they apply now. As I mentioned, Marist College is in the top 8% of most selective
colleges and universities in the country. Top 8%.
GN (
00:58:04
):
Lastly, if you had a chance--and you probably do now and again--to go to the board, what would you like
to tell the board of trustees from your vantage point? What's a need or what's to be changed or what
we must continue and do more of? Where would you see yourself addressing that question at the
board?
RN (
00:58:34
):
Well I certainly think that we're headed in the right direction. I think that we missed a great opportunity
a couple of years ago. And, you know recently I applied for the academic vice presidency. And I
remember when I was being interviewed by the committee which consisted of a number of faculty, I
said when I'm going to say now. And I remember that it did not go over well, but I believe that we
missed a great opportunity a few years ago when we did not buy into the unit model. I believe that
Marist College faculty, we should all be teaching three courses each semester. It is impossible for us to
do it just simply by staying with our current structure on a three credit courses and going down to the
three courses. We just don't have the revenue to do that. Maybe in the future, if the revenue coming in
from our continuing education programs, our adult programs, graduate programs and so forth, perhaps
it can change. But I think that we need to somehow go back--and maybe the core is one of the ways in
which we can do that--we need to go back and refashion our program. We need to introduce more four
credit courses for our faculty to be teaching. And we need to get our faculty to be teaching three
courses each semester because they're...the expectation of faculty with respect to research compared
to when I came to now has grown tremendously, absolutely tremendously. And our faculty need the
time to do that. But I believe that what happened with respect to the core--I mean not the core--with
respect to the unit model was the fact that I think it was the process that was instituted in terms of all
these different votes along the way. Gosh, it was a horrible process. But I wish we could figure out a way
to go back and revisit that. And I hope that when the core people get together, they start thinking about
it also. And one of the things that I've talked to my faculty about in my particular school is that I believe
that our students--when they graduate--in order for them to be successful, they really need to have
more than just simply your standard lectures, this passive learning. I believe our students need to have
active learning and which I consider internships as part of active learning. But I believe that all of our
courses should have not only the passive learning component but need to have some sort of an active
learning component, project type activities in which students are working together. Students are
actually practicing what it is that they are learning about in the and the teaching component. And I think
that a good way for us to actually go about doing that is to turn a lot of our courses into four credit
courses with your standard passive learning component. But all courses must have an active learning
component associated with them.
GN (
01:01:59
):
Perhaps the building going up--the Hancock--provide a lab or something where that interaction could
take place.


RN (
01:02:06
):
Absolutely.
GN (
01:02:07
):
Such as he sciences have chemistry and biology.
RN (
01:02:09
):
Absolutely.
GN (
01:02:09
):
Well, you've run through my list. The last thing, is there anything you'd like to say that we did not say?
RN (
01:02:22
):
No. You know, I think we covered it. I do-- as I mentioned before--I do feel that our newer faculty-- it
would be nice if they actually had this perspective of associated with Marist College, to see where
Marist College came from and that we weren't the same college just 30 years ago. I mean, we're not
talking about a hundred years ago, we're talking about 30 years ago and there has been massive
changes.
GN (
01:02:57
):
30 years ago was 80 when you came. Very primitive in that many ways.
RN (
01:03:04
):
And so a lot has taken place during these past 29 years since I arrived.
GN (
01:03:14
):
We want to thank you, Roger, for all that you've done for Marist over the last 29 years. Dennis Murray
should be thanked too in his way, but I think you deserve as much credit.
RN (
01:03:23
):
Yeah. Has there been a study. Guides and effect?
GN (
01:03:28
):
Right. Well, thank you.
RN (
01:03:29
):
Thank you.
GN (
01:03:30
):
Thank you very much.