Interview with: Dr. JoAnne Myers
Marist University
Poughkeepsie, NY
Transcribed by Lola-Dillon Cahill
For the Marist University Archives and Special Collections











JoAnne Myers


2

Interviewee:
Dr. JoAnne Myers
Interviewer:
Andre Beliveau
Interview Date:
11 July 2018
Location:
Fontaine Hall
Topic:
Andre Beliveau interviews Dr. JoAnne Myers to get input on her experiences being a
member of the LGBT+ community in the Hudson Valley, and a professor of political science at
Marist.
Subject Headings:
Marist College History

Marist College, Poughkeepsie NY

Marist College BiGALA

Marist College Department of Political Science
Summary:
In this interview, Andre Beliveau has a conversation with Dr. JoAnne Myers about
her experience growing up as a member of the LGBT+ community, and how it impacted the
direction in which she took her life. Myers speaks about her own life experiences working with
LGBT youth in the Hudson Valley as a co-founder of the Hudson Valley LGBTQ Youth Center.
They also discuss her time as a Marist College professor, the struggles she faced in gaining
respect from certain students and colleagues, her influence in founding Marist’s BiGALA, and
her opinions on the Marist culture in 2017, as well as where she sees it going in the future.




JoAnne Myers


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00;00;05;02 - 00;00;07;26
AB
Just double check. Make sure we're good.

00;00;07;29 - 00;00;08;21
JM
Okay.

00;00;08;23 - 00;01;03;00
AB
All right. I think we're all set. So today is Wednesday, July 11th, 2018. It is about 1:30 in the
afternoon. We are in the Fontaine building of Marist College, and I am here interviewing
associate professor of political science, Doctor JoAnne Myers. Or, as her students affectionately
call her, Doctor Jam. so thank you for meeting me today, Doctor Jam. And, my name is Andre
Beliveau, and I'll be conducting the interview. So, Doctor Jam, if you could just maybe, we'll
start off with just a little bit of background about you coming to Marist. What brought you here?
What has your academic career been like leading you to come to Marist and since you've been
here?

00;01;03;12 - 00;02;48;29


JoAnne Myers


4

JM
That's a mouthful. <Laugh>. So, I've actually been at Marist for thirty-two years. Prior to coming
to Marist. I realized that if I wanted to teach what I'm the most interested in, basically, how do
you better liberal democracy and make it more inclusive for all, I would have to practice what I
understood. So, before I came to Marist, I worked on the county and, Rensselaer county level,
New York City level, Department of sanitation, the mayor's office. Then on the state level, New
York state level in the Division of Housing and Community Renewal, doing rent administration
and transition. And then I worked for Governor Cuomo doing the Fort Drum expansion before I
came—you know, said to him—I’ve done everything I can do. It's time for me to now go teach.
<Affirmative>. And when I interviewed, it was late in the interviewing season. And I actually
had, two interviews, one at Yeshiva down in New York City and one here at Marist. The one at
Yeshiva. I actually, aborted because the department didn't know what they wanted. They didn't
have any idea of exactly what skills they needed to fill in their department. They were fighting
amongst themselves. And who wants to be in that position?

00;02;48;04 - 00;02;49;22
AB
<Affirmative> Right, yeah. Understood.

00;02;49;24 - 00;03;18;23
JM


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Marist, on the other hand, had a great reputation of being inclusive. They had taken faculty from
other institutions during the Vietnam War who had gotten dismissed because of their anti-war
activities. And I like the teaching philosophy. So I interviewed here and, that's basically all that
she wrote.

00;03;18;26 - 00;03;21;12
AB
<Laugh> And what year did you start here?

00;03;21;12 – 00;03;22;00
JM
Eighty-six.

00;03;22;05 – 00;03;25;00
Eighty-six. Okay. Where did you get your PhD?

00;03;25;14 - 00;03;27;13
JM
At Rensselaer Polytech Institute.


JoAnne Myers


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00;03;27;15 - 00;03;28;27
AB
Okay. And that was in political science?

00;03;28;27 - 00;03;36;05
JM
No, it was in urban environmental studies and public policy communication. It was an
interdisciplinary degree.

00;03;36;10 - 00;03;58;09
AB
Oh, very cool. Well, awesome. So, a little, I guess a little bit about yourself, personally, can you
talk a little bit about your personal journey, as a lesbian woman? Your personal coming out and
what that was like for you maybe growing up? And things like that before coming to—before
your time at Marist College.

00;03;58;12 - 00;04;22;10
JM


JoAnne Myers


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So, before my time at Marist, I actually knew that I was not straight back when I was in seventh,
eighth grade. <Affirmative>. And I probably came out about that time. But then I also covered.

00;04;22;12 - 00;04;24;03
AB
Right.

00;04;24;06 - 00;05;03;28
JM
You know, so I had, you know, boys and girls, and it was okay. And for a second, I thought that
that was who I was, but I realized I was a little bit more feminist than that. And, in 1970—'70,
yeah, ’70, my English teacher gave me a copy of, Kate Millet's Sexual Politics, and that sort of
made the, the scales fall from my eyes—

AB
Right.

00;05;04;02 - 00;05;14;26
JM


JoAnne Myers


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About feminism. I always knew that I was a strong advocate for equality. In fact, in fifth grade, I
was going to be the first woman president.

00;05;14;28 - 00;05;18;16
AB
<Laugh> How great would that have been? That would have been—that would have been
awesome.

00;05;18;19 - 00;05;47;13
JM
Yes and no <laugh>. It turns out that I'm very good at advising people and showing them their
options, you know, that you can go from policy A or B or C, and if you do this, here's what might
happen. Here are the consequences. Here are the unintended consequences. I have an idea about
how do you get to, to point X if that's where you're going.

AB
Right.

00;05;47;14 - 00;06;03;16
JM


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And it's something that I've always thought that, you know, teaching a class in political science
or teaching a class in public administration, that I don't want to just teach students to regurgitate.

00;06;03;19 - 00;06;05;13
AB
Right.

00;06;05;15 - 00;06;10;28
JM
Or fill in the blanks. I want to teach them to have a vision. And then how to implement that
vision.

00;06;10;29 - 00;06;29;23
AB
Right. I think that's great. And I think that, like that personality trait that you talk about, I think
that just translates well to being an educator in general. That's, really awesome. And, you
certainly have a knack for it. I know your students, the ones that I've talked to, anyway, have
nothing but high praise. So I'm sure those are the ones that did well in your class, right? <Laugh>



JoAnne Myers


10

00;06;29;24 - 00;06;56;09
JM
But you know what I what I tell my students is that, when I was in undergrad, I was a double
major in government and philosophy. The class that I actually learned how to teach, or really
how not to teach, was my international relations class, where the professor just wanted us to
memorize what does NATO stand for, what year was Tito signed in to be-- instead of talking
about the context.

AB
Right.

00;06;56;11 - 00;07;10;15
JM
Yeah. Because I—and I would say to him, and this is way back, where you had to actually walk
to the library and look up, you know, something in an index or get an almanac. You probably
don't even know what an almanac is.

00;07;10;17 - 00;07;11;04
AB
<Laugh> It's a book, right?


JoAnne Myers


11


00;07;11;04 - 00;07;14;02
JM
It's a book. <Laugh> A book of facts.

00;07;14;02 - 00;07;16;18
AB
A book of facts, right. How rare that is these days.

00;07;16;21 - 00;07;35;14
JM
Yeah <laugh>. So, you know, you could always look up, you know, dates and signatories. What's
more important is the context and the reason for it to actually exist. <Affirmative>. And I would
fight with this professor. I'm sorry. My phone is barking at me.

00;07;35;14 - 00;07;35;27
AB
Oh. That's okay.



JoAnne Myers


12

00;07;35;27 - 00;07;47;15
JM
To, resist. <Laugh> sorry. I'm going to just [pause] because if I don't do this, it will keep on
telling me that I have to.

00;07;47;18 - 00;07;51;28
AB
No problem <laugh>.

00;07;52;01 - 00;08;15;09
JM
So, I learned how not to teach. I learned that I didn't—you didn't want someone just to memorize
and regurgitate facts and dates. You wanted them to actually be able to use that information.
<Affirmative>. So, I got a C in that class because I fought with Forte every single Tuesday
evening because that's when the class met.

00;08;15;13 - 00;08;25;25
AB


JoAnne Myers


13

Right. Well, sometimes you have to do that, I think, and find your voice. Right. And find your
vision, as you said, to be able to transmit that to your students. That's really cool.

00;08;25;24 - 00;08;31;19
JM
Yeah. So, I learned—that grade to me is more important than any of the other grades.

00;08;31;19 - 00;08;33;15
AB
Sure. That's an important lesson I think, too.

00;08;33;21 - 00;08;45;22
JM
Yeah. So, and I think that our students right now, value their GPAs more than they value content.

00;08;45;24 - 00;08;46;29
AB
<Affirmative> That's a good point.



JoAnne Myers


14

00;08;47;01 - 00;08;52;18
JM
And to me I think that they're losing something. So, they don't—they don't challenge themselves.

00;08;52;20 - 00;08;53;11
AB
Right.

00;08;53;13 - 00;08;56;29
JM
And I say that, if you already know something why even take a class in that.

00;08;57;01 - 00;09;00;23
AB
Right. Yeah, challenge yourself, learn something new. Expand. Expand your vision.

00;09;00;26 - 00;09;22;14
JM


JoAnne Myers


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And what if you—yeah—so what if you—if you—I will never be a Russian speaker. But I tried
Russian, right. You know, so you fall out. You know, college is a place where you know, you do
examine what you know, you take out the idea and you look at it and you say, yes, no, maybe.
Problematic. <Affirmative>. Or, you keep it. <Affirmative>. And expand on it. And you learn
what you can do, and you cannot do. And if you learn what you cannot do, then you can surround
yourself with those people who can do that.

00;09;37;24 - 00;10;03;12
AB
Right. That's got some great wisdom, a lot of wisdom packaged in that simple statement. But I
think very, very true and profound at the same time. That's really cool, I think that the
undergraduate experience should be all of that. And someone who now myself, I'm looking into,
you know, my grad school options, it's definitely now I when I look back, I'm like, yep, that it
was, you know, a different approach to undergraduate studies than I think to graduate studies and
like you said, just kind of, challenging yourself and, and examining what you know and more
importantly, what you don't know <laugh>.

00;10;10;22 - 00;10;19;18
JM
And so, when you, when you're going off, you know, when you're going for your undergrad
degree, you're not really looking at, oh, who will be teaching me.


JoAnne Myers


16


00;10;19;23 - 00;10;20;14
AB
Right.

00;10;20;16 - 00;10;30;20
JM
Right, you're looking at, oh, what a beautiful campus. Oh, look at it. I can—look at the dining
hall. Right. <Laugh> Oh, sorry, you probably didn't get that gesture.

00;10;30;22 - 00;10;36;26
AB
Right <laugh>.

00;10;36;28 - 00;10;57;10
JM
Instead of saying, who's going to be teaching me? <Affirmative>. And as I tell my students,
whether or not I own a husband or a wife has nothing to do with who I am standing in front of a


JoAnne Myers


17

class. It is the fact that I have a PhD behind my name, right. So, I always say, you don't call me
Mrs. Meyers because that would be very scary.

00;10;57;12 - 00;11;07;21
JM
And my mother's been dead almost nineteen years now. I'm pretty scared—she was scary when
she was alive, she would be scary now <laugh>.

00;11;07;23 - 00;11;26;01
AB
Indeed. So, you're—talk a little bit about, if you can, outside of Marist, your personal
involvement in like the greater LGBTQ community, I know you're very involved, locally and
have been for many years. So, can you talk a little bit about that?

00;11;26;01 - 00;12;55;17
JM
So, as I said, I was very much, a feminist when I went off to Skidmore College. It was a woman's
college and went coed while I was there. And I was very much against that because as a women's
college, women had to be the dumbest and the smartest. They had to be the manager of the
newspaper, and they had to be the writers on the newspaper. Right. The minute men showed up


JoAnne Myers


18

on campus, the men got to be the business people. They got to. You know, I watched women sort
of snuff down their voices. So, that was that was an interesting phenomena to watch that. When I
went to RPI, the opposite happened because now I was a female in what had been predominantly
a male school. So, I would get, oh, and Miss Myers, you know, what is a women's perspective on
X? Whatever X was. And I would say I don't know about all women, but I can speak from my
position. <Affirmative>. Yeah. So, I learned about, you know, the fact that we look at the other as
a, monolith. We would never say all American men do X.

AB
Right.

00;12;55;11 - 00;13;12;06
JM
But we say all black men do X, or all women do y. And I think, for instance, McCain, in picking
Sarah Palin did the same thing. Oh, she has a vagina, right <laugh>. All women will vote for her!

00;13;12;06 - 00;13;16;02
AB
Vote for her, right <laugh>. Not so much, I don’t think.



JoAnne Myers


19

00;13;16;02 - 00;13;37;13
JM
No, not so much. I like to say vagina, because here at Marist, one of the things when we were
doing The Vagina monologues, the, campus powers only wanted us to say the V monologues.
Because vagina is [pause] I don’t know.

00;13;37;13 - 00;13;42;04
AB
It's just so mystical, and unknowing, right <laugh>. Yeah. So, we can't talk about it in real life.

00;13;42;05 - 00;13;45;22
JM
No, but we can have a president nowadays who grabs pussies.

00;13;45;26 - 00;13;49;04
AB
That's right. <Laugh>

00;13;49;06 - 00;13;51;15


JoAnne Myers


20

AB
How times have changed <laugh>.

00;13;51;22 - 00;14;28;09
JM
So anyway. Oh, my. Whatever <laugh>. Anyway, so, when I was in New York City, I had a lot of
gay men friends in this—and actually, one of my best friends was one of the first victims of Aids.
I did take part in, gay protest, in front of City Hall, but I was at that point, working in city
government. So, I was pulled out saying, oh, I couldn’t do that.

00;14;28;26 - 00;14;30;14
AB
Yeah. What year was that?

00;14;30;17 - 00;14;35;21
JM
That was ‘79.

AB


JoAnne Myers


21

’79, okay.

JM
’79, ’80.

00;14;35;23 - 00;14;39;21
AB
And what about now? What's your involvement locally in the LGBTQ community?

00;14;39;25 - 00;14;47;08
JM
So, I was one of the founding members of the Hudson Valley LGBTQ Community Center.

00;14;47;10 - 00;14;48;21
AB
That's in, that one in Kingston?

00;14;48;21 - 00;15;01;25


JoAnne Myers


22

JM
Yes. Okay. And that actually serves from, northern Westchester up to Albany. And we are—and it
is the largest rural community center.

00;15;02;02 - 00;15;02;24
AB
Oh, wow.

00;15;02;26 - 00;15;24;27
JM
You know, and so there are a lot of issues in, non-urban areas. Ellenville, for instance, in
southern Ulster County, has a lot of trans teens who get kicked out of their homes.

00;15;24;29 - 00;15;25;20
AB


00;15;25;23 - 00;15;31;17
JM


JoAnne Myers


23

We have a huge homeless population when it comes to LGBTQ youth.

00;15;31;22 - 00;15;32;21
AB
Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

00;15;32;23 - 00;15;43;04
JM
And now as people are aging in, a lot of our elders, are going back into the closet.
<Affirmative>. Which is problematic too.

AB
For sure.

JM
Right. So, I was very lucky my, life partner, who I actually met at Kate Millett’s farm, which is
on the outskirts here. She had been in the woman's music business.

00;16;02;04 - 00;16;45;13


JoAnne Myers


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JM
She signed the first all-female band—rock and roll band to a major label, Fanny, which David
Bowie in 2000 said was the most—the band that should have been known the most. Anyway, so
she had done, Great Dames Productions, which was filming and productions, and she, we were
out at the Cape for one of my birthdays, I don’t know which one. And we went to see a Pat Bond
film—movie. No, not a movie, I lie. A play, a one woman play about Lorena Hickock.

00;16;45;26 - 00;16;46;16
AB
Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

00;16;46;18 - 00;17;43;14
JM
Lorena Hitchcock is, Eleanor Roosevelt’s intimate friend. And we went and we saw this, and
then, okay, she took it upon herself and started touring the one woman play. She, Margerie
(inaudible), and she and she took it up and down the eastern seaboard. And when she was doing
the play in Kingston, the historian from Hyde Park came and watched and watched and, within
the audience, and Patsy said, I don't know if this is really true because I knew Lorena Hickock.
She lived across the street from me at one point in Hyde Park. But she, Patsy went and did some
research and found out that Hick’s ashes had never been, collected from the funeral home and
eventually were, buried up in Rhinebeck in a pauper's grave.


JoAnne Myers


25


00;17;43;13 - 00;17;44;12
AB
Oh, wow.

00;17;44;14 - 00;18;20;07
JM
So, Patsy told us (inaudible) Elkay and I got some of our friends together, including Patsy and,
and Blanche Wiesen Cook among them. And we got her grave marked with a tree, a dogwood
tree, because she liked dogs, and she wanted to be buried under a tree. And with a marker that
talks about her being, Eleanor's intimate friend and a really cool, stone bench.

00;18;20;12 - 00;18;21;03
AB
Oh, wow. Very cool.

00;18;21;03 - 00;18;51;16
JM


JoAnne Myers


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Yeah. And now, the Eleanor Roosevelt Center. So, when, as a historian, you'd be interested in
this. When, Lorena died, she left all of her letters that she had received from Eleanor to the
library. To the FDR library, saying don't open them for X number of years. And when they finally
got opened, all of a sudden Lorena’s picture was basically cut out of—.

00;18;51;28 - 00;18;53;01
AB
Oh, wow. Yeah.

00;18;53;03 - 00;19;17;14
JM
So, we basically reclaimed Lorena. Or Hick, as she was known. You know, not the nicest of
people. She had to learn not to be a, you know, racist. Right. You know which Eleanor taught her.
<Affirmative>. But she lived in the in the White House, you know, in the little anteroom off of
the Lincoln Bedroom, where—which was Eleanor’s room.

00;19;17;18 - 00;19;21;06
AB
Right.



JoAnne Myers


27

00;19;21;08 - 00;19;29;14
JM
And in fact, the money's from Hicks books, actually helped put one of the granddaughters
through college.

00;19;29;16 - 00;19;30;10
AB
Oh, wow.

00;19;30;12 - 00;19;44;27
JM
So. But anyway, so, we actually now some of—we collect money for scholarships in Hick’s
name. Social justice scholarships that go to young women at the girl’s leadership workshop at the
Eleanor Roosevelt center.

AB
Oh, very cool.




JoAnne Myers


28

00;19;48;02 - 00;20;06;16
JM
And, what's really cool is that her name gets carried out, her message gets carried on. Which is
cool. And now her pictures are back. She's—there’s pictures of Hick now, if you go through the
tours in Valco, you'll see pictures of her on the mantel. So, we sort of reclaimed her.

00;20;06;16 - 00;20;08;09
AB
Brought her back to the forefront.

00;20;08;09 - 00;20;17;17
JM
Right. And then, okay. And another colleague of hers, started Inside Out magazine.

00;20;17;19 - 00;20;18;29
AB
Oh, right. Okay.

00;20;19;02 - 00;20;49;00


JoAnne Myers


29

JM
And, Inside Out magazine served the greater Hudson Valley, and it became the sort of the
connecting tissue. And it was, because of Inside Out magazine that the first gay pride, parade
march was held in New Paltz right after. So, we had the marriages that were performed by the
mayor.

00;20;49;03 - 00;20;51;28
AB
Right.

00;20;52;00 - 00;21;04;29
JM
And then the, this march, and from the march is what actually germinated with the magazine, the
need for the center.

00;21;05;02 - 00;21;19;27
AB
Right. I know it's very popular. I always see all their social media postings. I've not yet to go up
there in person. I need to, but as part of this project, I've been in contact with a few of the people
up there because I know they're looking to do some college outreach this year, so.


JoAnne Myers


30


00;21;19;27 - 00;21;39;17
JM
Yeah. And it's wonderful because they have a really prominent building, and people have been
driving, you know, driving by and stopped and say, oh, you know. There's, you know, a story of a
trucker who was driving by who would never come out until he saw this huge rainbow flag.

00;21;39;22 - 00;21;40;04
AB
Wow.

00;21;40;10 - 00;21;41;01
JM
Flying, so.

00;21;41;01 - 00;22;00;19
AB
That's great. I love hearing stories like that. They're usually all just so empowering. In this day
and age it's still important—and coming out is still. And I feel like some people try to downplay


JoAnne Myers


31

coming out. I don't think that's fair. I think it's still very important—like and to celebrate that and,
and see that as a very empowering thing. Even in 2018, I think especially now.

00;22;01;01 - 00;23;28;09
JM
Well, coming out is something that you do all the time. Because if you look at—I always play
with how I look. Sometimes I have long hair, sometimes I have short hair, sometimes I you
know, I have blond hair, sometimes now I have gray hair. <Laugh>. Right. You know, this is how
I am. You know, there's nothing that says there's a great big L on her head that stands for liberal. I
mean, lesbian or loser, whatever it’s supposed to stand for. <Laugh>. So I, you know, you're
always coming out, but I still will have students who, in writing their own political history, will
say that they don't they don't approve of gays or gay marriage. And I always say, well, it's
marriage equality, you know, so it's not really, you know. But we still live in a time where
[pause]. Where we are, we have people who think that they can impose their views on somebody
else. So, if you don't believe in gay marriage, don't marry the person of the same sex. If you don't
believe in abortion, don't have one. But make sure that there's, you know, birth control. You
know, if you don't, you know, don't just be pro-fetus. Be really pro-life if you want to be pro-life.
You know, make sure that there's education and housing and—.

00;23;28;15 - 00;23;29;02
AB


JoAnne Myers


32

Health care.

00;23;29;03 - 00;23;38;06
JM
Health care, all of that, you know, for people. Don't just care about them while they're being
incubated.

00;23;38;08 - 00;23;40;28
AB
<Laugh> Yeah. You—it just seems so logical, right. You would think.

00;23;40;28 - 00;24;00;11
JM
You would. But there's a group of people that, that so refer to—and unfortunately the governor
did today the LGBTQ lifestyle. No, my lifestyle is to be a clutter. <Laugh> You know, my life is.

00;24;00;13 - 00;24;13;07
AB


JoAnne Myers


33

Yep. Big difference. And I think just how sometimes the verbiage is used. Like even when
people say, like, preference I'm like, well yes, I, I do. As a matter of fact, yes, I do prefer this, but
it's not--.

00;24;13;10 - 00;24;15;00
JM
Yeah, but I also prefer Chinese food.

00;24;15;00 - 00;24;20;28
AB
Exactly right. Yeah. <Laugh>.

00;24;21;01 - 00;24;24;21
AB
Yeah. The struggle sometimes, indeed.

00;24;24;23 - 00;24;50;26
JM


JoAnne Myers


34

So, here at Marist, we didn't even have a women's studies program because I was told there was
no such thing as women's scholarship. And that's why we started the Women in Society
Conference in ‘91. And luckily, Kate Millet was our first speaker.

00;24;50;28 - 00;24;51;27
AB
Oh, well, yeah.

00;24;51;29 - 00;25;16;05
JM
And, we basically built an international program. But I was also told, beware that when you have
a women's conference, you're going to get ‘that’ type of woman. So, I walked out of the AVP’s
office holding the hands of one of my colleagues. Female colleagues I should say, yes, that type
of woman.

00;25;16;08 - 00;25;20;02
AB
Right. <Laugh>



JoAnne Myers


35

JM
Whoops. <Laugh>

00;25;20;05 - 00;25;22;18
AB
Well, it's good to challenge the status quo, right?

00;25;22;18 - 00;25;32;03
JM
Yeah. And so, I always think that I'm here at Marist, because I'm going to be that grain of sand
that's going to make the pearl.

00;25;32;03 - 00;25;32;24
AB
Right.

00;25;32;26 - 00;25;45;23
JM


JoAnne Myers


36

You know. Because it would be far easier for me to be at a Vassar or at a Smith or at a—at
another school. A lot more liberal school than Marist.

00;25;45;25 - 00;26;22;13
AB
And it's interesting too, in my research I've found, you know we—because Marist seems to even
today have a bit of a, you know, the conservative label seems to get applied to it, and but you
know in talking to people, that wasn't necessarily the case in the 70s. <Affirmative> It was and I
think, you know, even you said yourself, you know, there was a big antiwar movement on
campus from the faculty and the students and, you know, very liberal, progressive mindset in the
70s. And then when we started to get into the 80s, and for sure, into the 90s, that's when the
social change on campus seemed to seem so—to have changed.

00;26;22;16 - 00;26;49;18
JM
Yeah. And so, if Jerry White was here, you know, he had been here from ’63 on, for way over
fifty years teaching. He would say that the, when it was an all-male school, it was the male,
male, and male, relationships all over the place.

00;26;49;21 - 00;27;09;09


JoAnne Myers


37

AB
<Affirmative> You know, can you talk a little bit about Jerry White? I know that he was very
involved with a lot of, LGBTQ things on campus, both underground in the early days and
involved later. And when you came to campus, I know you were both very close. So can you talk
a little bit about Jerry and what you know of his involvement over the years on campus?

00;27;09;09 - 00;28;23;26
JM
So, Jerry basically had been out his whole life. He went to Catholic schools. He was in the Navy,
had affairs left and right, stories. And his, he and his best friend who he met in the Navy. True
best friends. Not lovers. Remained so until Saul passed, probably in, like, 2010 or so. [Pause].
It's just, so he said that, you know, life here on campus—so he came to Marist when he was
working on his Ph.D. down at Fordham, and fell in love with the area. He liked to, nude sunbathe
on in Minnewaska. <Laugh>. And he would take students with him out there. He was a big
Giants fan, you know, kids would come over to his house for gourmet meals and to watch the
game.

00;28;23;18 - 00;28;26;26
AB
Oh, yeah. That's great. <Laugh> Yeah.



JoAnne Myers


38

00;28;26;29 - 00;29;02;00
JM
And so, he took a lot of young men under his wing. In fact, he adopted one young man who was
at Marist, whose family basically disowned him when he came out in the late 80s. And,
unfortunately, Jose passed of, because of AIDS. probably in the mid-90s, probably like ‘95, ‘96.

00;29;02;00 - 00;29;07;14
AB
Right. And, Doctor Roy was out on campus, right? Was he--?

00;29;07;14 - 00;29;28;01
JM
Yeah. He in fact, how, he and Jose had become friends, and then adopted family was, one of the
Brothers said, you need to go meet Mr. White. He is, you know, he's gay too. He'll help you.

00;29;28;04 - 00;29;41;26
AB


JoAnne Myers


39

Right <laugh>. Yeah. And I feel like a lot of people have said that, that he was sort of like the,
individual on campus for a very long time that anyone, you know, identifying, you know, as gay
on campus would sort of gravitate towards him.

00;29;41;28 - 00;30;04;28
JM
Yeah. So, at one point, anything that was gendered, about women or about, gay or lesbian, either
went for—the gay staff went to Jerry, for the lesbian and the women's gender issues always came
to me.

00;30;05;01 - 00;30;25;28
AB
And so, you guys were partners in crime in that, <laugh> in that way on campus. Yeah. And I
know, we had talked about in some of our previous conversations and it's come up with some
other people, but I know that Jerry used to organize meetings on campus, and off campus for you
know, gay students or even what we would now call straight allies.

JM
Mm-hmm <affirmative>.



JoAnne Myers


40

00;30;26;00 - 00;30;30;17
AB
I mean, can you talk a little bit about some of those things that may have gone on in the 60s and
70s and 80s?

00;30;30;19 - 00;30;51;24
JM
So, there were organizations all over the place, and some of them were just friendships, you
know, and there, were gay bars in town that people would go hang out at and across the, the
river, and Prime Time was a big dance club.

00;30;51;26 - 00;30;58;13
AB
Right. Actually, I remember Prime Time. It was on 9W, right? In Highland. <Affirmative>. Yeah,
I remember <laugh>.

00;30;58;15 - 00;32;15;19
JM


JoAnne Myers


41

So, you know, everybody hung out at these seedy bars or clubs. And in the 80s, a group of
LGBT, well now what we would call LGBT, students came to us and wanted a place to meet and
wanted to form a club. And they would actually meet in the old Fontaine, which, you know, after
nine at night, and we would stay around so they could get into the building and, when they
wanted to actually form a club, they were told by Bob Lynch that they had to give up their Social
Security numbers. Because before you had CWIDs, you had to use your Social Security number.
And a lot of these young people didn't want any have their Social Security number out there,
because that would mean maybe fifteen years from now, someone could find out that they were
gay. That might still be, there was still a huge stigma. And so, we gathered faculty, Social
Security numbers because we had to come up with ten of them.

00;32;15;17 - 00;32;16;12
AB
Oh, right.

00;32;16;14 - 00;32;16;25
JM
Yeah.

00;32;16;26 - 00;32;17;16


JoAnne Myers


42

AB
That's interesting.

00;32;17;16 - 00;32;21;06
JM
Yeah. So I think Jerry's and mine are the first two.

00;32;21;08 - 00;32;21;23
AB
<Laugh> wow.

00;32;21;25 - 00;32;28;05
JM
You know, so we did that to form the first club to get some funding.

00;32;28;08 - 00;32;53;26
AB
Right. I think if I recall, the first time it--that was the GLBSA. <Affirmative>. And the first time
it was mentioned in the student newspaper was in ‘89. And then it went through a bunch of


JoAnne Myers


43

changes. I want to say it was ’97, does that sound right? Where GLBSA became BiGALA? Yeah.
And in ‘97 BiGALA became an actual recognized charter club, whereas before that it was known
for things around campus. But it wasn't officially chartered until ‘97, which I think is pretty
remarkable.

00;32;53;11 - 00;33;12;08
JM
Yeah. So, you know, I've been on campus since ‘86 and he was on campus in ‘63, just so that you
have that. Yeah. One of the founders of the Gay Men's Health crisis center down in New York
City was a Marist grad, too. So, you might want to research that.

00;33;12;08 - 00;33;13;00
AB
Sure.

00;33;13;02 - 00;33;13;22
JM
Yeah.



JoAnne Myers


44

00;33;13;25 - 00;33;14;26
AB
Do you remember his name?

00;33;14;28 - 00;33;21;15
JM
Not offhand, but he did leave some money to—like $10,000, which was a nice sum.

00;33;21;18 - 00;33;21;27
AB
Right.

00;33;22;00 - 00;33;32;07
JM
For us to use for things. <Affirmative>. Bob Lynch might have his name. Because we had a hard
time trying to get that money out.

00;33;32;09 - 00;33;32;24
AB


JoAnne Myers


45

<Laugh> right. For all—.

00;33;32;26 - 00;33;34;03
JM
No pun intended.

00;33;34;06 - 00;33;39;14
AB
Right. Okay <laugh>. Can you talk a little bit about Out of the Margins?

00;33;39;16 - 00;33;59;29
JM
So Out of the Margins was probably in the 90s. And, while we had a student group, there were a
lot of faculty and staff that were also out, and we needed a place to discuss issues such as, for our
partners, could we get health care?

00;34;00;03 - 00;34;00;28
AB
Right.


JoAnne Myers


46


00;34;01;00 - 00;34;08;22
JM
And in the late 90s, we did get health care for our partners. So, which was wonderful.

00;34;08;22 - 00;34;09;08
AB
Right, yeah.

00;34;09;11 - 00;34;29;13
JM
You know, we still had to prove that we had—were partners and we had co-mingled our, our
moneys and stuff like that. We were actually living together and it wasn't just to—. Yeah, I think
I was told, well you could get, you know, funding for your aunt. You know, health care for your
aunt if she needed it.

AB
<Laugh>



JoAnne Myers


47

00;34;29;15 - 00;34;30;01
JM
Hmm.

00;34;30;03 - 00;34;41;08
AB
<Laugh> So now the, so that was—it was all faculty?

00;34;41;08 - 00;34;43;08
JM
No, it was faculty and staff.

00;34;43;08 - 00;34;44;07
AB
Faculty and staff.

00;34;44;09 - 00;35;06;00
JM


JoAnne Myers


48

Yeah. So there were, [inaudible], there were [pause]. Yeah, there were adjunct professors who
were part of it. There were student life, housing. Yeah, you know. Guess what, we’re
everywhere.

00;35;06;11 - 00;35;08;19
AB
That's right. Yeah <laugh>.

00;35;08;22 - 00;35;10;03
JM
<Laugh> Who knew?

00;35;10;05 - 00;35;26;05
AB
Right, right. It is interesting that Out of the Margins even gets referenced a few times in the
student newspapers in the 90s when, when they were talking about, BiGALA and the GLBSA
forming. And it was mentioned that there was a faculty and staff group on campus. I was like, oh,
wow <laugh>.



JoAnne Myers


49

00;35;26;07 - 00;35;34;07
JM
Yeah. So, Tim Massey, you know, was on campus. And so—and he basically was the head PR
guy.

00;35;34;12 - 00;35;35;15
AB
Right.

00;35;35;18 - 00;35;49;22
JM
And he, basically he married when—I’ll tell you his story. He started off life as a priest, but
married his best friend, right, and they’re still together.

00;35;49;25 - 00;35;54;00
AB
Though wasn't Jerry studying for the priesthood at one point in his life?

JM


JoAnne Myers


50

No.

AB
No?

JM
No.

AB
That was something someone had said.

00;35;55;08 - 00;35;59;14
JM
He went to—no, he basically gave up religion.

00;35;59;15 - 00;36;01;05
AB
Gave up on that pretty quickly <laugh>.


JoAnne Myers


51


00;36;01;08 - 00;36;06;21
JM
He gave—yeah. He went through, all the way through. Yeah. He was not going to—.

00;36;06;26 - 00;36;13;20
AB
Right. I know he was—I know he had some very strong opinions and was known to butt heads. A
few of the Marist Brothers on campus from time to time <laugh>.

00;36;13;20 - 00;36;16;01
JM
A few, yes. And Father Lamorte. Yeah.

00;36;16;06 - 00;36;34;01
AB
<Laugh>. Yeah, yeah. Can you talk a little bit about, the forming of BiGALA and what the
reception of that—in the 90s, what the reception of that was like from administration or what the,
maybe some of the feelings from some of your colleagues and students?


JoAnne Myers


52


00;36;34;03 - 00;37;19;07
JM
And again, I think it's [pause] Even though we are almost fifty years from Stonewall now, today.
In the—in the 90s, being out was still a phenomena. Yeah, it was still very much a stigma. And, I
think with BiGALA, you know, again, there was, tension between—and there's always been
tension between gay men and lesbians as they came together politically. Gay men have a, their
issues have always been more [pause] of a sexual liberation, let's put it that way. Because as men,
they were already privileged, right. So, they didn't need to get all their rights. Women, on the
other hand, needed those rights. They needed economic rights. They needed custody rights. They
needed—because if a woman came out, she lost custody of her children.

AB
Right.

00;37;52;01 - 00;37;55;07
JM
Men? Not so much.

00;37;55;09 - 00;38;30;16


JoAnne Myers


53

AB
Right. I think that's something that even like for us in the LGBT community, we forget that
sometimes it's—I mean, for me, admittedly, as a gay man, there are some times where you
forget. You forget that that there is, yeah, you know, there is a male privilege that I do have.
Sometimes it's easy to slip your mind, I think. And it is important to kind of have that self-check
and say, well, I am a gay man, but I'm still a man and there is a level. <Affirmative>. There is a
level of privilege that, that comes with that, that our, you know, lesbian sisters and even our, you
know, our trans brothers and sisters and non-binary friends, don't have that.

00;38;30;25 - 00;38;43;18
JM
Yeah. And that's very true. And if you look at right now it's mostly trans women that, that are,
murdered for transgressing, for giving up their male privilege. For challenging that.

00;38;43;25 - 00;38;44;20
AB
Yeah.

00;38;44;23 - 00;38;51;20
JM


JoAnne Myers


54

Like, who would want to give up male privilege and become a second-class citizen?

00;38;51;22 - 00;39;00;19
AB
Yeah. It's true. The social dynamics of all that sometimes is a hard pill to swallow, as I say
sometimes <laugh>.

00;39;00;21 - 00;40;34;17
JM
And our—the way our society is set up, it is very much set up that where the power lies—and
this is part of the issue with, Trump and the Trumpettes. Is that, soon white males are going to be,
a demographic minority and they don't want to give up the power and the privilege that they have
because they think that if they are a minority, they are going to be treated like they treat
minorities, which is the same issue in ’91 [pause] oh, ‘92 with the first gays in the military. There
have always been gays in the military. There have always been, you know, women who dress as
men in the military. But to actually allow men in the military, gays in the military, and not to
have them outed and then ousted, with dishonorable discharges because that's what would
happen. And this actually started in Newport, Rhode Island, in 1919 when FDR was the assistant
secretary of the Navy. In fact, one of your predecessors in history, Ben Benkert, actually wrote
about that as his history thesis.



JoAnne Myers


55

00;40;34;05 - 00;40;37;03
AB
Oh, wow.

00;40;37;05 - 00;42;05;02
JM
And got it published in, the Harvard Lesbian and Gay Book Review, was what it was called at
that point. Anyway, from that point on, you know, being gay in the military got you ousted with a
dishonorable discharge. So, in the 90s, when, again, it's always been gay men in the military,
even though there's gay women, you know—in fact, there's a story of Eisenhower, being told
during World War II to get rid of all of his—the lesbians who are working under him. And this
one lesbian, Tommy, who was his right-hand woman, said well, I'll give you a list but my name
is going to be right up on top. And he sort of just said thank you and carried on, right. But it's
again, it has always been straight men who say, oh, if there is a gay man in my battalion, he's
going to treat me like I treat women. [Pause]. No. And I would always, you know, respond to
that. No, because gay men are just like anybody else. They might only like redheads. They might
only like beers. They might only, you know, whatever <laugh>. Right? You know, don't think
that, you know, you are any catch.

00;42;05;26 - 00;42;06;25
AB


JoAnne Myers


56

<Laugh> Right. Don't just presume. Yeah.

00;42;06;25 - 00;42;08;17
JM
Just because you're male.

00;42;08;18 - 00;42;10;10
AB
Yeah.

00;42;10;12 - 00;42;16;09
JM
And so, in the 90s we had had that issue happening.

00;42;16;12 - 00;42;22;14
AB
Was there a lot of political activism on campus about that, about the don't ask, don't tell things
about the military?



JoAnne Myers


57

00;42;22;18 - 00;42;58;27
JM
But again, at that point, we didn't have ROTC on campus. We would—did we have ROTC on
campus? [Pause] Actually, we did have a ROTC for a second, we did have ROTC on campus
because with Bush's, George Herbert Walker Bush, the first time we went into Iraq, we actually
had a teach-in. And I remember one of my young, male students had come to me who he was
using ROTC as a form of scholarship, and it was peace time, so it was okay.

AB
Right.

00;43;01;27 - 00;43;14;21
JM
And all of the sudden, we were now going to go in and protect Kuwait from an invasion from
Iraq. All the Kuwaitis were going to go to Egypt because they didn't want to fight.

00;43;14;23 - 00;43;15;17
AB
Right.


JoAnne Myers


58


00;43;15;20 - 00;43;27;29
JM
You know, but we were going to go fight for them. And he didn't want to do that, and what that
would have meant for him. So, we actually had some antiwar happenings on campus.

00;43;28;02 - 00;43;30;06
AB
Right. No large scale like sit-ins or—?

00;43;30;10 - 00;43;32;20
JM
No, just a couple of teach-ins.

00;43;32;23 - 00;43;35;24
AB
Can you talk about the teach-ins? Because I know they were very popular.

00;43;35;26 - 00;43;38;00


JoAnne Myers


59

JM
They were very popular in the 60s.

00;43;38;00 - 00;43;44;13
AB
60s and 70s. Yeah, a lot of alumni have talked about—and former faculty. But can you talk a
little bit about the few that you experienced in the 90s here?

00;43;44;13 - 00;44;12;20
JM
So, we had a few. So that was, when did we go into Iraq the first time—early 90s. That was
actually a big teach-in. And we took over the student center and all the rooms were filled and it
was all day, all night. And that was probably the most successful teach-in.

00;44;12;22 - 00;44;17;02
JM
And I think it was, it was successful because it was also student generated.

AB


JoAnne Myers


60

Right.

JM
With faculty help.

00;44;21;06 - 00;44;28;00
AB
Yeah. I feel like the—that is something we are missing now on campus. I think that might be—.

00;44;28;02 - 00;44;32;08
JM
And, it goes back to the whole GPA thing.

00;44;32;11 - 00;44;32;29
AB
Right.

00;44;33;01 - 00;44;54;01


JoAnne Myers


61

JM
I want the best GPA I can get. I am not going to challenge myself. Oh, my goodness. I am not
going to cause any waves. I don't want any black marks against my name. So, they don't get
involved. They don't—and I always ask my students, you know, what have you done today that
the government hasn't been involved in?

00;44;54;08 - 00;44;55;10
AB
Right.

00;44;55;12 - 00;45;16;07
JM
And I'll get, you know, finally, you know, they’ll be silent, there will be a couple laughs. And
finally, some young man will say, I took a leak in the, you know, outside, and I go, you sort of
violated a public health, regulation. You could be arrested for public urination.

00;45;16;10 - 00;45;19;02
AB
Yeah. So, there's still government involvement there. Even if they're not intervening <laugh>.


JoAnne Myers


62


00;45;19;05 - 00;45;41;18
JM
Yeah. And I said if you went into our, into the bathroom, you were going into our sewer system.
Who paid for that? Where did that come from? It was clean. You know. And so, you know, well,
I was, you know, in my dorm sleeping. I said, well, you're sleeping with the government. Those
“do not remove” tags.

AB
<Laugh> Yeah, that is right.

00;45;41;24 - 00;45;51;17
JM
<Laugh> Under penalty of the law, do not—you know. Yeah.

JM
I want to know who is actually checking those. I want to know who the inspector is.

00;45;51;20 - 00;46;01;19


JoAnne Myers


63

JM
So why we have those is so that if you go to resell that mattress, you can only resell it if it has
that tag. And it has been fumigated.

00;46;01;19 - 00;46;05;14
AB
Interesting. That makes sense, I guess <laugh>.

00;46;05;16 - 00;46;08;20
JM
Yeah. Because who wants bedbugs?

AB
Well, sure yeah.

JM
And lice and other things.

00;46;09;20 - 00;46;11;21


JoAnne Myers


64

AB
Things like that. Yeah. No good <laugh>.

00;46;11;23 - 00;46;26;01
JM
Yeah. So basically, the only thing you know you—you’re breathing air that we, we still have the
EPA. Thank you, Mr. Nixon. No thanks to Pruitt <laugh>.

00;46;26;03 - 00;46;28;28
AB
Right <laugh>.

00;46;29;00 - 00;46;49;07
JM
But we do have, you know, air quality controls. We—you do drink the water and we do have
water control. So, you know, basically the only thing that you can do without government
intervention right now on any level is think. And as long as you don't think out loud Siri won’t,
you know, go order you something by accident, right? <Laugh>



JoAnne Myers


65

00;46;49;07 - 00;47;48;11
AB
<Laugh> Yeah. Yeah. That's very that's very true. And, you know, think about it in that light. And
I feel like the political activism now on campus, especially looking at our campus’ history. And
not just for LGBTQ activism, I just think political activism in general, it's not as wide scale as it
seemed to have been in the 70s and 60s. It seems now very much to be small pockets here and
there. And any of the political activism that I have come across in the 90s have all been
extremely conservative activism or trying to maintain a conservative stigma, whereas now the
pockets they are still amongst the students and you know, my peers, I see pockets of both, you
know, liberal and conservative. And most of the conservative students that I have come into that
nowadays seem to be, you know, they might, they would be okay with, you know, with LGBTQ
people and all that. They are like, I am, you know, fiscally conservative. And it’s like, well what
does that mean exactly? So, but—.

00;47;48;06 - 00;47;51;18
JM
You’re still spending five dollars at your Starbucks <laugh>.

00;47;51;18 - 00;48;09;12
AB


JoAnne Myers


66

Right. <Laugh> Yeah. So, it's, there's pockets of it now, and there's obviously different groups on
campus, but it just doesn't seem to be as widespread. And I mean, and I know—so in your
experience, what do you think has really affected that change in the time you have been here, as
far as the social and political consciousness?

00;48;09;19 - 00;48;33;15
JM
So, I think that a lot of students think that we already are equal. You know. Oh, we have access to
contraceptives. Oh, we have, you know, access to abortion. Oh, we have equal pay. No, we don’t.

00;48;33;15 - 00;48;34;13
AB
We have marriage equality, it’s—.

00;48;34;13 - 00;49;32;29
JM
Yeah. We made all of these, basically moves towards, to become more inclusive, more equal.
And we don't realize how quickly they can be taken back. <Affirmative> So, we actually had a
group of students go down to one of the first, let's see, I'm going to tell you what one of the first,
marches on Washington for abortion and reproductive rights. Let's see, if--we actually had a


JoAnne Myers


67

Marist bus go down, which was a first, because the Gender Equality Club was very active and so
that must have—let’s see—probably sixteen years ago. So, and sixteen years ago was the early
2000s. Right. So, you know, we—yeah, so we have these bursts.

00;49;32;03 - 00;49;37;14
AB
Right. Do you remember the first time Marist marched in the New York City pride parade?

00;49;37;16 - 00;49;39;09
JM
I think that was very recently.

00;49;39;11 - 00;49;43;21
AB
I think so too. Yeah. I’m inclined to say maybe even like 2014 or 2015.

00;49;43;23 - 00;49;45;05
JM
I'm going to say like 2016.


JoAnne Myers


68


00;49;45;05 - 00;49;45;14
AB
Oh, you think so?

00;49;45;14 - 00;49;51;29
JM
Yeah. I mean, I couldn't get them to come to the New Paltz Pride.

00;49;51;29 - 00;49;56;08
AB
Yeah, it's interesting if you go on the college website now, one of the first things where it talks
about--.

00;49;56;08 - 00;50;03;05
JM
Not this website. <Laugh> Don't even let me go there. That's not populated by humans or faculty.

00;50;03;08 - 00;50;06;09


JoAnne Myers


69

AB
Right. <Laugh>

00;50;06;09 - 00;50;08;01
JM
Go figure. No books in the library either.

00;50;08;03 - 00;50;10;23
AB
That's right. Yeah. And well, there is no library right now, I think according to the— <laugh>.

00;50;10;24 - 00;50;15;03
JM
Yeah, I know. That was like my first thing was I couldn't get to the library.

00;50;15;05 - 00;50;24;20
AB
<Laugh>. But, one of the first things it says, I think on the even on the old website, one of the
about Marist community is that they participate in the pride march. So I mean, I—.


JoAnne Myers


70


00;50;24;25 - 00;50;26;14
JM
Because it looks good, but I mean—.

00;50;26;17 - 00;50;27;16
AB
But they, they it's—.

00;50;27;16 - 00;50;28;16
JM
It's a new thing.

00;50;28;16 - 00;50;39;07
AB
It is a new thing. But I also think it's, still, even though it looks good and you know, we all will
be like, well what's the motivation behind that? I still think there’s something to be said about it
being about it being so prominent on the—prominently displayed.



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00;50;39;14 - 00;50;51;29
JM
And look at the pictures. Right. How many pictures of persons of color versus how many persons
are—you know. Yeah. So, it's we're trying to be inclusive, you know, by our pictures.

00;50;52;01 - 00;50;53;14
AB
But what's, how does that translate?

00;50;53;16 - 00;50;56;14
JM
Is there substance behind.

00;50;56;16 - 00;51;10;29
AB
Right. Also, I think that's something we can all work—try to work to bring that substance about.
And that's why I think those pockets that exist today are there. But I'm just not sure what we can
do to sort of get them to become more than just pockets <laugh>.



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72

00;51;11;02 - 00;51;40;19
JM
Yeah. Well, it was also to listen to everyone and to validate their experiences. For instance, when
Cuomo was talking this morning about immigration, he said, you know, unless you're a Native
American, you know, we're all immigrants. Well guess what, there were a whole bunch of people
that were brought over to the United States, not on their own volition. <Affirmative>. They were
sold into slavery. Would you call them immigrants? Not so much.

00;51;40;18 - 00;51;43;13
AB
Oh, yeah.

00;51;43;15 - 00;51;48;18
JM
Right? Yeah. So sometimes we actually have to stop and think about our language.

00;51;48;19 - 00;51;54;23
AB
Right. I agree, and I think how we talk about things sometimes, makes all the difference. Yeah.


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00;51;54;25 - 00;52;25;09
JM
And we have a whole, you know—so, a shameless plug for one of my classes. We have a class
on politics of prejudice. Right. And we it's been on the books for—since the 70s. Carolyn
Landale put it on the books. And it was basically, at that point was to look at anti-Semitism. You
know, I've sort of expanded it to look at anti-everything.

AB
Right.

00;52;25;12 - 00;52;38;02
JM
Yeah. Because we have anti-Semitism, we have racism, we have homophobia, we have
Islamophobia.

00;52;38;05 - 00;52;39;21
AB
And they are things that need to be talked about.


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00;52;39;22 - 00;52;49;06
JM
Yeah. We have, if you don't talk about them, I think—you know I'm lucky. My mother said never
talk about sex, religion, or politics. That’s all I talk about <laugh>.

00;52;49;08 - 00;52;55;29
AB
Right. So that's a, I don't go a day without talking about any of those things.

00;52;56;01 - 00;52;59;21
JM
Yeah. Religion maybe I could get away with, but.

00;52;59;24 - 00;53;23;28
AB
But the other ones, not so much. So, we've been kind of talking for a little bit about just the, like,
how the campus climate, socially, what has it been like for you as an out lesbian professor on



JoAnne Myers


75

campus? As far as the good things, the bad things, has there been struggle? Like, what are some
things you can talk about that the faculty experience of being out at Marist?

00;53;23;15 - 00;53;55;19
JM
So, I'm not a shy, retiring person, but I always say I'm the other-other-other. I'm not Catholic. I'm
not a boy. I'm not straight. And so, I've had a lot of pushback, from my fellow faculty members
who, as I told you, thought that women didn't do scholarship, that there was no such thing as
lesbian scholarship.

AB
Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

00;53;55;22 - 00;54;29;16
JM
Like, why study the lesbian liberation movement? So, the first time I was going—one of the first
times I was going out for sabbatical to write
The Historical Dictionary of the Lesbian Liberation
Movement
, a boring title <laugh>. I actually had members of the Sabbatical and Research
committee not wanting to give me the sabbatical, even though I had a book contract, because
who would read that book?


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00;54;29;21 - 00;54;30;18
AB
And what year was this?

00;54;30;25 - 00;54;55;00
JM
This was ‘90—[inaudible] let me reach over your head, and I'll tell you. I'll put my glasses on
and reach over your head <laugh>. Not in that order [Pause] <Humming> 2003.

AB
Okay.

00;54;54;28 - 00;55;06;25
JM
So yeah. So that was 2003, 2013 was the Lesbian and Gay Liberation Movement. Yeah.

00;55;06;27 - 00;55;20;14
AB


JoAnne Myers


77

Which is, so it's interesting to me because I know, one of the things you said coming here, you
know, one of the things that brought you to Marist was because they were so inclusive and open,
and that was definitely a stigma of the college in the 70s here and, you know, the early 2000s,
something like this. So, you kind of see this ebb and flow and the pendulum swinging.
<Affirmative>. Where do you think we’re at now in 2018?

JM
Well, can I—back up?

AB
Oh, sure.

00;55;25;24 - 00;55;48;05
JM
Because, one of the things I think that, in fact, I just saw, Doctor Zuccarello, who had hired me,
back in ’86. And he—his theory was that the, when it was still the Marist—predominantly the
Marist Brothers, they were more liberal than the lay faculty.

00;55;48;05 - 00;55;51;04
AB


JoAnne Myers


78

That seems to be the case of, I would think, pretty empirically <laugh>.

00;55;51;05 - 00;56;11;05
JM
And so lay faculty trying to prove their point would actually become more doctrinaire. And so
that was, you know, in fact, Doctor Zuccarello, one of his best friends came out who was a priest
and, you know, so was—told me that, you know, that coming out story.

00;56;11;09 - 00;56;12;06
AB
Right.

00;56;12;08 - 00;56;46;17
JM
So yeah, we're everywhere—and as I said, you always have to continually come out. I have had
students who write, you know, they don't want—you know, they don't believe in, you know, gay
marriages. I just had a, one of our alums who got her Ph.D., was just told recently. She just told
this story on Facebook how, some of her students don't, don't like lesbians. So she goes, well,
guess what? You're learning from one right now.



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79

00;56;46;01 - 00;56;47;14
AB
Yeah. Right, yeah, it's—.

00;56;47;14 - 00;56;52;25
JM
You don't have to like me. And I'm not like Tinker Bell.

00;56;52;28 - 00;56;58;16
AB
<Laugh> Right. And I am a real person. I'm actually here. I'm not a, you know, a fictional
character in a book somewhere.

00;56;58;19 - 00;57;08;27
JM
Yeah. So, I think that, you know—as people become friends, you know, learn that there are there
are different types of people out there.

00;57;09;00 - 00;57;14;13


JoAnne Myers


80

AB
Sure. So, where do you—I mean, so where do you think Marist is now in 2018 as far as all that?

00;57;14;13 - 00;57;41;18
JM
So, 2018 we've made a huge step not having—. So, in the 70s when the school was still a
Catholic school, the Marist Brothers had basically gone into the red. So, one of the things that
happened was that they said, let's become secular and we can get state money and federal money.

AB
Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

00;57;41;21 - 00;58;08;22
JM
And literally some of the brothers were told, go off and get married. And they did. Right. So now
you had a whole bunch of married brothers. And they hired—that's when they hired Dennis
Murray, the youngest college president. And then he had this sort of, you know, he made Marist
more corporate over the course of the, his term.

AB


JoAnne Myers


81

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

00;58;08;25 - 00;58;13;07
JM
It's a long term, right. Over what, thirty something years?

00;58;13;07 - 00;58;13;28
AB
That sounds about right, yeah.

00;58;17;28 - 00;58;26;00
JM
Right. And now we have David Yellen, he’s not Catholic, but we thought, you know, he was a
dean at a Catholic. Law school.

00;58;26;02 - 00;58;29;05
AB
Was it Loyola that he was at?



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82

00;58;29;07 - 00;58;44;28
JM
Yeah. Married to a black woman [pause] who believes in social justice. Well, you know, now I
want to see him practice that a little bit more. Yeah, but, you know, changes are starting, starting
to happen.

00;58;44;28 - 00;59;01;16
AB
I think so, too, yeah. I know they just did that, the campus climate survey, and they brought in
people with, you know, different groups to talk. So, I think the fact that things like that are
existing and yeah, as someone who's active now on, Fox Pride in our which, you know, came
which was born out of BiGALA in the 90s.

00;59;01;16 - 00;59;02;00
JM
Yeah.

00;59;02;00 - 00;59;22;16
AB


JoAnne Myers


83

To just see the acceptance that we do get from you know, from the top, from a top-down
perspective, is encouraging. I think now we have to just sort of boost the bottom-up perspective
and get some of our students to not just say, oh you know, sort of be, you know, complacent to it,
but maybe start getting a little bit more active and involved.

00;59;22;22 – 01;00;04;09
JM
And, and partly it's because I don't, students [pause]. When you come to, when you go to a
college, you know, you for the longest time you've been under the thumb of your parents and
then all of the sudden you have all this freedom, you know, and you actually have to think about
what all of this freedom, you know, when do I study, when do I party, when do I—you know.
And there's still a lot of pressure to belong. To conform and in our society, our hegemonic norm
is still heterosexual.

01;00;04;21 - 01;00;06;05
AB
Yeah.

01;00;06;08 - 01;00;15;12
JM


JoAnne Myers


84

And so, there's that tension there. And so, for a lot of our students, they don't want to rock the
boat.

AB
Right.

01;00;15;14 - 01;00;19;19
AB
Yeah. And I think whether they identify as gay or straight, I think that that goes both ways.

01;00;19;19 - 01;00;37;27
JM
It goes for all of them. And then for a long time, with BiGALA, there were, it was mostly lesbian
women and straight allies. <Affirmative>. Because the gay men, I’d see gays, see gay men and
students out dancing. But going, they wouldn't come out on campus.

01;00;38;00 - 01;00;59;27
AB


JoAnne Myers


85

Right. Or they wouldn't get involved in any of the clubs that were emerging. <Affirmative>.
That's interesting. A few of the alumni that were involved in BiGALA said the same thing. It was
very, you know, straight allies and women and lesbian focused, for sure for the longest time in
the 90s. And I would say that’s almost probably still some truth to that now. I would say to, like
to Fox Pride today I think that’s a fair thing to say.

01;01;00;02 - 01;01;18;22
JM
And partly again, it's our hegemonic norm about male privilege and power. You know, why
would you want to give up, you know, that that top position to say that you were you are not
accepting it all, as a gay male?

01;01;18;24 - 01;01;57;12
AB
Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's true. So, we've covered a lot of ground. <Laugh> A lot of different
things. Is there anything else that you could think of you'd want to share as far as like, any of the
groups on campus or as far as you know, when we're talking about LGBTQ history on campus?
Are there any big highlights or moments in your time that you have been here, or things that you
have heard about before your time that you feel that stand out, that should be, that people should
know about, and something that should be preserved and, maybe something that's mainstream or
maybe not so mainstream?


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86


01;01;57;14 - 01;02;30;15
JM
I think that it is [pause]. So, a long time ago, I had a student who wanted to do—look at gay
history and gay political movement, and she did it as an independent study, and she wanted to
call it that. And the registrar did not want to call it that, because what would happen, you know,
ten years from now, they would see that on her transcript. Right.

01;02;30;17 - 01;02;32;28
AB
<Laugh>. Mm-hmm.

01;02;33;18 - 01;02;40;07
JM
Yeah. So, you know, it is still bucking a lot of these norms.

01;02;40;14 - 01;02;41;16
AB
Right.


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87


01;02;41;19 - 01;03;07;25
JM
You know, and then there is also the issue for some people who just, you know, college time, and
again, college is a privilege, right? And we are still elite, you know, going to college, you know,
whether or not you come from a working class background or part of the 1%, you are still at a
private school, you're not over at Suny New Paltz.

AB
Right.

01;03;07;28 - 01;03;10;02
JM
Right. Or you're not working.

01;03;10;04 - 01;03;10;16
AB
Right.



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88

01;03;10;18 - 01;03;36;22
JM
Right. You're not in the military working your way through school. Yeah. So, there's a whole
bunch of issues here that we have to talk about our privileges, that [pause]. I lost my train. Uh-
oh. I have no idea where I was going <laugh>. Lost in her own mind. A horrible place to be.
Anyway—oh I know where I was going, so. So, part of being at school is you get to experiment,
too. And you get to try on different personas. And, so there are a group of people who might, for
instance, only be lesbians in college, right? Yeah. Because again, where the privilege is still to
catch yourself a husband and get a dishwasher—I don’t know, I am making this up.

AB
<Laugh>

01;04;04;15 - 01;04;21;29
JM
But there still are in our cultures, in all the different cultures there are still a lot of married men
who are on the down low. <Affirmative> [Pause] Because our society still says you have to, you
know, these are your markers, right?

01;04;21;29 - 01;04;24;03


JoAnne Myers


89

AB
The white picket fence, the dog, the kids. Yep. Yeah.

01;04;24;05 - 01;04;32;16
JM
Yeah. And so, people do that. Yeah. Most people still get, you know, kids the old fashioned way,
right.

01;04;32;18 - 01;04;37;08
AB
That's right. That's very true.

01;04;37;10 - 01;04;46;19
JM
Yeah. And so, [pause] the thing is that people have to have that array of knowledge.

01;04;47;02 - 01;04;56;19
AB


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90

Right. And do you think from the time you started to the time now, do you think we are doing
that effectively here at Marist?

01;04;56;22 - 01;06;08;20
JM
I think we are, but I think we still have, a problem where if a professor talks about [pause], black
history or talks about labor history or talks about, LGBT history or talks about, women. Just this
little bit, this much they, you know, <gasp> that's all they talked about in class. I actually had a
student who overheard a conversation I had during break with another student who asked me
about the women's music festival in Michigan. And we were out in the hall, and that's what this
this person wrote in my evaluation. All I talked about were lesbian things. No, I was not—I do
have a lesbian voice. But everything I say, even if I am talking about straight men, I am still
talking about lesbian. And it is still a lesbian voice saying this.

01;06;09;10 - 01;06;11;18
AB
Right. So, there is still that challenge.

01;06;11;20 - 01;06;39;29
JM


JoAnne Myers


91

And it still is that much so that I mean, one of the issues with diversity, in the classroom is, you
know, if you look at my Politics and Prejudice class, you'll see that that class is probably the
most equally divided among males and females and different races, right. But not, but there are a
whole bunch of people that should be taking that class that do not take that class.

01;06;40;01 - 01;06;59;27
AB
Right <laugh>. They’re not there. Yeah. So, if, let's say to the out and proud professor or the out
and proud student that comes across this piece of oral history ten, twenty years from now, what's
your advice at Marist? What is your advice to them?

01;07;00;04 - 01;07;25;03
JM
My advice to them is, is to keep on learning and to challenge yourself. You know, and to realize
that, it is not a straight line, no pun intended <laugh>. Right. And that you actually have to push
at ideas and people to try to make what you really want to happen.

01;07;25;05 - 01;07;30;20
AB
That's great advice <laugh>. Well, do you have anything else you'd like to offer?


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92


01;07;30;21 - 01;07;36;13
JM
No, if I think of anything else, I’ll jot it down or send you an email.

01;07;36;15 - 01;07;43;15
AB
Very good. We'll add it onto the transcription documents <laugh>. So, Doctor Jam, thank you so
much for this. This interview was great.

01;07;43;20 - 01;07;45;13
JM
And if you think of any questions.

01;07;45;15 - 01;07;46;16
AB
Yeah, I'm sure, I’ll have some.

01;07;46;16 - 01;07;50;13


JoAnne Myers


93

JM
Like we did, literally nothing was, a straight line in that interview <laugh>.

01;07;50;15 - 01;08;05;18
AB
Right? Yeah. We went down some tangent rabbit holes, but that's great. No, that's what I wanted.
I wanted to just kind of to hear that. I think it is important to hear, you know, your voice and the
experience from your years here. And I think that all came through. So, thank you for that. Okay.
And we'll definitely follow up <laugh>.

01;08;05;25 - 01;08;08;17
AB
Okay. Coolness.


END OF INTERVIEW