Kevin Carolan Oral History Transcript
Media
Part of John Martin Kevin Carolan Oral History
content
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
1
John Martin “Kevin” Carolan
Marist College
Poughkeepsie, NY
Transcribed by Erin Kelly
For the Marist College Archives and Special Collections
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
2
Transcript: Kevin Carolan
Interviewee:
John Martin “Kevin” Carolan
Interviewer:
Gus Nolan
Interview date:
10 June 2002
Location:
Marist Archives and Special Collections Reading Room
CD No.:
Topic:
Marist College History
See Also:
MHP – Oral History <
http://library.marist.edu/archives/oral_history.html
>
Subject Headings:
Marist Brothers - United States - History
Marist College History
Marist College (Poughkeepsie, New York)
Marist College Social Aspects
Summary:
Within the following interview, Kevin Carolan speaks of his forty years
teaching at Marist College as an Associate Professor of Mathematics. Kevin Carolan
speaks of his early educational years and his introduction to Marist College through the
Marist Brothers at Esopus. After completing his undergraduate degree in mathematics at
Marist College and his graduate studies at Catholic University, Kevin Carolan returned to
Marist College in 1962 to teach mathematics. Among teaching most of the courses
offered in the Mathematics major within his forty year span at Marist, Kevin Carolan also
encouraged the cooperation between the college and IBM to improve Marist’s computer
technology. Within the interview, Kevin Carolan also speaks about the physical
development of the college as well as the leaderships of the college under former
President Linus Foy and President Dennis Murray. The interview ends with Kevin
Carolan’s stance on where he hopes Marist College will be in the future in terms of
distance learning.
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
3
“BEGINNING OF INTERVIEW”
Gus Nolan:
Good morning. This is an interview with Kevin Carolan, retired
Associate Professor of Mathematics at Marist College. The interview is being
done for the Archives of the college and today is June 10
th
. It’s about 10:30 in
the morning and we’re speaking to Professor Carolan. Good morning Kevin.
Kevin Carolan:
Good morning Gus.
GN:
Kevin, could you give us your full name please?
KMC:
My baptismal name is John Martin Carolan.
GN:
Were you named after any member of the family?
KMC:
Yes, my father’s name is John and my uncle was named Martin and he’s
my mother’s brother.
GN:
Where and when were you born?
KMC:
December 6, 1931 in New York City.
GN:
Okay, and the borough?
KMC:
Manhattan.
GN:
Manhattan, okay. Do you have any siblings?
KMC:
Yes.
GN:
And could you name them?
KMC:
I have a brother Peter who’s deceased and I have three sisters, Peggy,
Anne and Mary.
GN:
Okay, and your parents’ names and what did your father do?
KMC:
My father was a manager for the Service Transportation System, which
was the bus transportation system in New York City. He originally was the
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
4
doorman at the Plaza Hotel in New York but when World War II started, he went
to work for the Service Transportation Company and my mother was pretty much
a housewife. She did work part-time in the New York Ballet School cleaning in
the evenings.
GN:
And your mother’s name?
KMC:
Bridget Halley but she went by Delia so everybody knew her as Delia
although her baptismal name was Bridget.
GN:
Alright. What about your early education? Where did you go to grade
school and high school?
KMC:
I went to St. Anselm’s grade school in the south Bronx and then I went to
St. Anne’s Academy in New York City and I spent one year there and then I went
to Esopus across the river with the Marist Brothers.
GN:
So that’s your entrance into Marist Brothers, the beginning of the formation
program?
KMC:
That’s right.
GN:
And what year was that?
KMC:
That was 1947.
GN:
And do you recall any significant experiences while you were in Esopus?
Some of your dramatic performances at the house?
KMC:
Some of my… [Laughter] I played opposite Jep Lanning in
Breezy Money
so that was my…
GN:
Your high career? [Laughter]
KMC:
First and last stage performance.
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
5
GN:
Okay, and then when did you leave Esopus to come to Poughkeepsie?
KMC:
Well, we went… We actually went to Tyngsboro so we spent two years in
Esopus, sophomore and junior year and then we really had senior year in
Tyngsboro.
GN:
What year was that that you went up there?
KMC:
I guess maybe ’49.
GN:
’49 and ’50 in Tyngsboro?
KMC:
Yea.
GN:
And then you began your college life really when you came back to
Poughkeepsie as a Scholastic in ’50, ’51?
KMC:
Right.
GN:
Okay. While you were at the college here, at Marian College, do you have
outstanding remembrances of activities you had, keys, particular obligations that
you had to take care of?
KMC:
Yea, I used to take care of the grotto. That was the key that I had and I
guess it’s been changed now. It’s not the same as it was then and…
GN:
And what did you study while at the college? Your major?
KMC:
I majored in Mathematics.
GN:
And on completing your college courses here, did you graduate from
Marian or did you leave early?
KMC:
No, I graduated. I graduated in ’54.
GN:
Okay, and then what was your first teaching assignment?
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
6
KMC:
Well, my first assignment was really cooking. I cooked in Esopus for a
year and it ended up that there was some sort of a complication and ended up
that I ended up teaching Religion and Latin besides cooking so that was my…
GN:
In Esopus?
KMC:
In Esopus was my first teaching assignment.
GN:
And then going out to the Apostolate, to the schools? Where did you go
first?
KMC:
I went to Cardinal Hayes in the Bronx.
GN:
And for how long were you there?
KMC:
From ’55 to ’61.
GN:
And at what point do you go to Catholic University for graduate?
KMC:
’61.
GN:
In ’61?
KMC:
Yea and then I came to Marist in ’62.
GN:
Okay, let’s go back to your personal life outside the Marist Brothers. When
did you marry Donna? Donna is your wife I believe. [Laughter]
KMC:
That was August of 1974.
GN:
Okay. Can you say something about her and her background and her
career?
KMC:
Well, she’s from Montana. I was introduced to her through Marty Lang,
who did teach at Marist College and at that time was at Fairfield University and
he was in charge at the Religious Education Department at Fairfield and Donna
was going to Fairfield to get her Master’s degree in Religious Education and
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
7
about the same time that I left and Marty sort of was instrumental in introducing
us to each other so…
GN:
And what has she done since that in keeping with her Religious Education?
KMC:
Well, when we got married, she was a Religious Education coordinator at
St. Mary’s in Poughkeepsie. I forget for how long she was there as a… maybe
two years. Maybe two years. I don’t think it was three years that she was a
religious education coordinator. And then when Sean came along… Well it
couldn’t have been… She stayed at home full-time for both the birth of Sean and
Sarah. And then about the time that Sarah was five or six, Donna got a teaching
position at St. Mary’s School in Fishkill, New York and she was there for… I think
it was maybe three years or something at that time.
GN:
Alright. Now in the last ten years, what kind of work has she been doing?
KMC:
Well the last… After she left St. Mary’s in Fishkill, she became a principal
in St. Martin dePorres in Poughkeepsie and she did that for about six years and
then after that she was in charge of… She was a district Superintendent for
Dutchess and Ulster Counties and she did that until last year and this past year,
she’s been principaling St. Joseph’s Parish in Croton Falls.
KMC:
And what about the children? You mentioned Sean and Sarah.
GN:
Right.
KMC:
What are they doing now and what do they do?
GN:
Well, right now Sarah’s going for her Master’s in Elementary Ed at NYU and
Sean is a financial analyst for Louis Vuitton in lower Tennessee, which is a high
class holding company for companies that specialize in luxury goods.
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
8
GN:
Right.
KMC:
That’s what he’s doing.
GN:
Does he take care of your financial investments? [Laughter]
KMC:
No.
GN:
We’ll pass on that. Okay, let’s talk about your coming to Marist to teach.
How did that come about? Where were you and were you at C.U. and then you
were assigned to come to Marist to be a Mathematics instructor?
KMC:
Yea, I was at… Well, I taught at Cardinal Hayes from ’55 to ’61 and then
the understanding was that I would come to Marist.
GN:
Yes.
KMC:
So I went to… Gone to Catholic University to pursue some graduate
studies and then they were having some problems at Marist and it worked out
well for me that I come in ’62.
GN:
So in ’62 you came?
KMC:
Right, yea.
GN:
So then you retired this year so you had the full forty years.
KMC:
Full forty years, yea.
GN:
Let’s talk about your forty years at Marist and some of the outstanding
accomplishments that we could point to. Let’s start from the beginning. What
were some of the first assignments? You had teaching assignments and
committee work. Do you remember those things?
KMC:
Well, I… When I first came here, it was a very small department so it
ended up that I ended up teaching practically every course that we have for what
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
9
was offered, that we’d be offering. I think about the only ones that I didn’t teach
were Differential Equations and Geometry.
GN:
How many Mathematic majors were there in those years?
KMC:
Oh, we had a fairly good… We used to average about fifteen majors a
year. We had at that time, we probably had more majors than we do now even
though the college is a lot larger, we ended up having more majors. When I first
came here, there were a lot of student Brothers and there was a need for
Mathematics teachers so there was… It was fairly large. I think it was maybe
fifteen to twenty-five majors a year and I remember one year it got damaged and
maybe about twelve and I became very much concerned about it. But right now,
we have, maybe we average five or six a year. That’s about what we would have
so…
GN:
The two other areas I’m interested to hear you talk about, one is your
interest in computer technology and getting involved in computers and
languages, computer language. Can you say something about that? How did
that come about?
KMC:
That came about when I was teaching at, well probably at Cardinal
Hayes. I was very good friends with Larry Hanshumaker and he was very
interested in computers. At that time it was seen that, you know, the
mathematics of the future, you’re going to be using computers so that was very
much something that I was very interested in. I got interested in it almost from
the beginning and…
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
10
GN:
Well when you came to Marist, computers were not the thing that they were
to become in their significance.
KMC:
Well, we did have a computer and you could do things in Fortran for
Mathematics so I ended up learning Fortran and you know, the students… What I
had when I first came here, they would write programs in Fortran for things like
Statistics and so forth so we were able to use whatever was available at that
point in time. I think the… The advantage that I saw for Marist was that none of
the things about Mathematics or mathematicians tend to be exclusive. That it’s
looked on as being a sign of genius to be strong in math. If you’re strong in math
then you’re smarter than other people and I think with what the Marist traditions, I
thought a chance to make Mathematics more inclusive and I thought that
computers would be a way to do that. I thought with our heritage that we could
be in the fore front, sort of saying that, instead of being an exclusive discipline,
we’re going to try to make it as inclusive as we possibly can. So that’s part of the
reason that I very much became interested in it. I saw an opportunity to make
Mathematics more accessible to other people.
GN:
In those days it seems to me there were widespread opportunities for
seminars and courses that were given to faculty and administrators and to
secretarial staff just to get into… and you, I recall, played a part in that. Did you
not?
KMC:
Yea. Well, when I… This interest in computers goes back since certainly
from…
GN:
The Cardinal Hayes days?
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
11
KMC:
Yea, Cardinal Hayes and almost as soon as I started teaching, I felt that
that was the way to go and I guess I lost my train of thought now on it.
GN:
I was trying to put the teaching, the seminars that we had, the classes that
were given. I think you wrote a manual for some of that.
KMC:
Right, yea. Well, we ended up leapfrogging some computer generations,
that we went from the 1401, which was like almost in the dark ages of computers
and we jumped right into what you would call timesharing and in between we had
skipped a lot of steps that were occurring there. And it was a timesharing system
so you were actually able to access the computers so it was a question of
training faculty and the staff on how they could actually use the, you know…
GN:
To get into the big machine?
KMC:
To get into the big machine and what would be involved in that so that
was that.
GN:
And at that time Linus Foy was playing a part in this as well, was he not?
KMC:
Yea, Linus was... Linus was the President. He had been very much
involved I guess getting the 1401 and I guess with the financial situation, it was
tough at that time. So here we had a machine that we had paid for and was still
getting the paychecks out which is the most important thing. [Laughter]
GN:
Yea.
KMC:
So there was no reason to really get rid of it except that he realized that it
would have to change. So in the meantime when I became the Associate Dean
with Richard LaPietra, one of the first things that we try to do was to see what we
could do about upgrading the computer system and it ended up that Richard
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
12
referred me or I don’t know, to this Steve Dunwell, who was an IBM Fellow and
he was instrumental in developing the 360, which sort of set a standard for IBM
that took them a long time to, you know, to surpass. And as a result of the work
that he did for IBM, they made him a Fellow, which means that he can do
whatever he wants to and he decided to get into what you would call a shared
educational computer system, which they gave the acronym SECOS to. And I
was on that board of directors and at that time it seemed that the only way that
Marist could move to this technology would be to, you know, be part of some sort
of an educational cooperative with other schools and so forth. So I was on the
Board of Directors and eventually it reached the stage where SECOS couldn’t
make it with the organization that they had and then at that time, we had enough
use on Marist. Marist, where we were using enough things on a system, that we
ended up becoming a host for this shared educational computer system so that’s
how we moved. We moved form like the dark ages if you want, right into the…
GN:
The cutting edge kind of…
KMC:
To the cutting edge. So we had this computer system and it ended up
that Marist sort of took over what that shared educational computer system was
and we ended up hiring staff from there. We ended up hiring Cecil Denney, Ron
Rosen and a couple of the other people who were…
GN:
They were key in it.
KMC:
Who are on that staff and we ended up hiring those and they were
extremely talented and they were, you know, excellent in developing computer
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
13
systems. So they, for a minimal cost, were able to develop a very sophisticated
system for a college of our size.
GN:
Good. Let’s go back to that think that you just slipped in there. When Dr.
LaPietra became the Dean, there were two Associate Deans with him, you and
Jerry Cox.
KMC:
That’s right.
GN:
Okay, and what was your role? How did you see your role in those days as
an Associate Dean? What was your responsibility?
KMC:
Okay, I was responsible for Academic Services. So the Academic
Services that I was responsible for was for the computer center, the library, the
Registrar’s office and I was also responsible for institutional research. So they
were the areas that I…
GN:
Yea, yea.
KMC:
The administrative areas that I had responsibility for.
GN:
And also space.
KMC:
Space, [Laughter] yea, that’s right. I…
GN:
You were the space cadet actually.
KMC:
Yea, the…
GN:
Assignment of space in classrooms and all that.
KMC:
Yea, I…
GN:
You supervised the assignments of those things.
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
14
KMC:
Not so much the assignment, more the long-range planning that the… I
did a study on this with the needs, the physical space needs that we had for the
library and based on the basis of that study, Linus went ahead with the move…
GN:
From Donnelly to over here?
KMC:
The move the library from Donnelly to the Fontaine building, so that
was… And it was more the study that I had done, you know, saying how much
space we needed, how much we had, what the needs were, that Linus felt that
he had enough to go to the Board of Trustees and say that we have to go in this.
GN:
Were you there also when we moved to Western Printing? Was that part of
your experience?
KMC:
No.
GN:
The classrooms set up over in Western Printing and so that came after you
I guess then.
KMC:
Yea, yea. That was during Andrew’s time, Andrew Molloy.
GN:
Okay. Moving onto the development of the college, maybe we can talk
about a number of phases that we went through. We went through a core
program at one time. Well, before the core program, we had a student option of
choosing sixty credits of their own, sixty-sixty program, the department assigning
another sixty but then the department is the choosers. The student was allowed
to choose a good number of what they wanted to do.
KMC:
Right.
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
15
GN:
And then we moved from there to the core program. Were you in an
administrative post when this was going on or is this Lou Zuccarello’s area and
post-LaPietra?
KMC:
The sixty-sixty was during our era I think. You know, we had some sort of
a core and then we went to the sixty-sixty and I’m trying to think now…
GN:
It must be Lou then, that Zuccarello’s administration that actually
implemented that with the various breakdown in Philosophy, six credits in
Philosophy, six in Mathematics, six in Literature.
KMC:
Yea, I think so. I don’t recall that I was involved with that.
GN:
Right. When you were back in the classroom then, having left the
administrative role, you were there for the movement from the core then to the
divisions, the departments and then the divisions and then finally the schools.
Have you seen any impact of that change on the college and what would be your
comments about it? Did we gain something by doing that or lose something by
doing that?
KMC:
Well, I think that I very much appreciated coming to Marist when it was a
small college and where I would have relationships with a lot of people in
different…
GN:
A lot of interpersonal kinds of…
KMC:
And from a very broad, you know, you would know Historians and English
teachers and Religion teachers so I found that…
GN:
We had some outstanding English teachers as I recall in that time.
KMC:
That’s right. [Laughter]
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
16
GN:
Yes.
KMC:
I guess I found that moving to things like the divisions that we sort of lost
that but I guess maybe that was inevitable but I think yea, it gives you a very
different sort of feel for the college that now I’m in a school where you really have
Mathematics, which most people treat as a liberal art and probably the, you
know, the feeling that most mathematicians would have would be towards the
liberal art and we’re in a school with computer scientists who end up being, you
know, really professional and not having an understanding for the liberal arts. A
lot of them haven’t come from a liberal arts environment so they only know, you
know, that sort of professional atmosphere if you want.
GN:
Okay, another development of the college would be the physical, the
McCann Center and then from the McCann Center, the library, the new Fontaine
building, the Lowell Thomas. Where were you in the process of some of these?
Where were you when the McCann building was going up? Were you in an
administrative post? Were you on any decisions about that?
KMC:
No, no. I wasn’t involved in that. I think for the first part of my tenure in
administration, I think from ’69 to ’76, I was with Richard LaPietra and for the last
part, from about ’76 to ’79, Lou Zuccarello was the academic dean at that point in
time and when he was the academic dean, I was responsible for the computer
center. I wasn’t responsible for the library at that time. Vince Tuscano…
GN:
I see.
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
17
KMC:
Had taken over that and yea, so primarily it was the computer center that I
was responsible for and that would’ve been part of the transit, transition moving,
you know, getting SECOS people on board, supervising that…
GN:
As you look at the college now, what strikes you as some of the biggest
physical changes, the most impressive, you’re surprised that this happened?
Would it be Fontaine, Lowell Thomas, the library? Where would you see the
greatest…?
KMC:
Oh, I guess the library would have to be the most striking change. I think
going from the library that I knew as a student and then when I came here and
the library was the current computer center in Donnelly Hall and then to have it
move from there to Fontaine, which we looked on as being a big jump at that
point in time and then the going to the place across the street for, you know, for
the foundry and then come back, yea, that would be certainly…
GN:
And then when you were a student, where was the library?
KMC:
It was in the President’s [Laughter] building.
GN:
The third floor in Fontaine.
KMC:
Yea, yea.
GN:
Now they have the Greystone rather.
KMC:
Yea, it was the Greystone building.
GN:
Yea, okay. Let’s talk about the students. When you first came here, you
were talking about a lot of the students were really Marist Brothers in training
although they were, began to expand I think about in 1960 or so to lay students
coming in as well. Can you describe what you would say to be the character of
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
18
those students and their traditions versus what you have experienced in your last
year of teaching? Is there a big contrast in that?
KMC:
Well, yea there would be because of the student Brothers. You know,
when I first came here they were… You know, I’m certain that most of the
classes that I had, I would say there was a very high percentage so they gave a
certain dimension which a certain feel like that you would have that you don’t
have now. You don’t have that…
GN:
Well, they didn’t have any women in those classes, did they?
KMC:
Yea, we started taking in women, not when I first… I forget what year we
started taking in women. It maybe was about ’66, somewhere around there but
it… In the beginning, yea, there were no women. Yea, so those changes were…
GN:
And now they dominate. I mean, more than fifty percent of the student
body would be women.
KMC:
Yea, yea. But I…
GN:
Do you think they’re as well trained now for your classes in Mathematics as
they were then or do you have to do more remedial work now or are they more
advanced?
KMC:
They’re certainly not more advanced. You know, it ends up that I’m sort
of teaching different courses now than when I first started here. When I first
started here I was teaching a lot of courses for Math… A lot of courses for
Mathematics majors. Now I don’t teach that many courses for Mathematics
majors so there’s been a change of the courses that I teach and it’s one of the
things that’s happened to Mathematics that, you know… I think I mentioned that
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
19
we had maybe fifteen majors so you would end up teaching two or three upper-
level Math courses. Well now, pretty much there aren’t enough upper-level Math
courses to go around the department so you might teach an upper-level Math
course every other year if you’re lucky. So there’s been a change in that way
and I guess I could remember when I came here that one of the… There was a
lot of concerns about one of the teachers who was teaching Statistics and that
still is a problem right now but you know, you know what’s being taught, how it’s
being taught and stuff like that.
GN:
Yea.
KMC:
So some of those things, you know a change but it’s not like I’m teaching
the same sort of Mathematics that I was when I first came here.
GN:
Well, a subject like Statistics is applied in various fields.
KMC:
That’s right.
GN:
You know, you have Communication people do it for polling…
KMC:
Right.
GN:
And the Psychologists do it for their own reasons…
KMC:
Right.
GN:
So it’s kind of a different focus sometimes…
KMC:
Right. That’s right.
GN:
As to what the content would be, you know, what they emphasize.
KMC:
Right, yea, yea. So…
GN:
Now on a large scale also, would you care to offer us some of your
observations about a contrasting in the two presidents that you knew so well like
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
20
Dr. Foy and President Murray. Let’s talk about Foy. What do you think Foy’s
greatest contributions were to the college?
KMC:
Well, I think he was an educator and I think he really encouraged the
faculty to develop and I think he really did develop the faculty.
GN:
He took the college from where Paul left it in ’58 and brought it to ’70, ’58,
’68, ’78. Twenty years and in that time made some…
KMC:
Yea and as far as I was concerned, he was very much a kindred spirit. In
fact, he had the he had the same attitudes towards computing that I did. In fact, I
guess I was speaking to Artin one day and I said something and he said “You
sound just like Richard Foy.”
GN:
Yea.
KMC:
And so, in one sense I…
GN:
Verified what your feeling was…
KMC:
Yea, yea. So I…
GN:
Was Foy open to the faculty? Were you allowed to… Did you make an
appointment to go see him or could you… Was he available? Did he come to the
lunch room? Did you see him in the corridors? Was Foy around as you recall?
KMC:
Yea, yea. Yea, I thought he was available. The college was small at that
time so there weren’t that many…
GN:
Big responsibilities.
KMC:
There weren’t that many buildings and so forth so, yea. I think the fact
that, you know, I was a Marist Brother and he was a Marist Brother at the same
time so I might’ve had more of an advantage than other people to... So…
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
21
GN:
Okay, and Dr. Murray. How do you see him as the President and the
leadership under his domain? What would be one of the key points that Murray
has brought to the college?
KMC:
Well, I think he was able to capitalize on a lot of the work that Linus did.
Certainly the work that Linus did in computing.
GN:
Such as the IBM?
KMC:
Yea, well actually getting, you know, moving toward where we were in the
position of having a very sophisticated machine and we were actually offering
courses and so forth so that when Murray came in and said that he wanted to go
in the direction of Computer Science, we already had approval for the courses so
it really didn’t take much to, you know, to come in with that particular part. I think
I’d say Murray is better at development, raising funds than Linus was. I
understand that he has a very good reputation for that, you know, outside of
Marist, has been a great fundraiser. But then I don’t think he’s quite the educator
that Linus was and I don’t think he’s developed a faculty to the stage that I
thought Linus did.
GN:
Can you correct or confirm an idea that I have here? Did Marist make itself
available for IBM employees in setting up specific courses, bringing them here
and making the campus available like in the summer programs and the night
programs. Do you remember anything about that in the course of time?
KMC:
The only thing I recall is that one of the graduates when I first came here
sort of complimented me or Linus about the fact that we were offering these
courses and that gave these IBMer’s the chance to get degrees and that was
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
22
something that Linus had done and I think he had pushed but he already… That
was already in place by the time that I got here. So my recollection of that time
was that it was more in providing the opportunity for IBM employees to get a
degree and, you know, Marist went out of its way to do that I think in the evening
and so forth that I guess Vassar wasn’t interested in and probably New Paltz
wasn’t in a position to do it. So that was something that…
GN:
Yea, yea.
KMC:
So I’m conscious of that. I can sort of remember the fellow who sort of
thanked me but I really didn’t have anything to do with it. Linus already had that
set up.
GN:
Good. From your perspective now, as you retire officially even though you’ll
continue to teach, you’ll look back at over forty years. What would you say were
maybe two or three of the most significant contributions you feel you made?
How have you… What satisfaction do you get out of having been here for forty
years? Would it be in some of the administrative things you did or the general
classroom opportunities that students you taught, the classes? Is there any area
that you are very satisfied with?
KMC:
Well, I guess I’d have to be satisfied with the way, you know, the
computing has developed at Marist but that’s been sort of bittersweet, that
there’s a part of it that I’m not satisfied with that I figured out departmental party
that at the last meeting, Lynn gave an opening presentation and she said that I
was really the father of Computer Science at Marist College, that I had sort of
designed the courses, taught the courses. In the beginning I was really doing
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
23
pretty much everything that was required to keep that going and I guess the… I
never really thought of myself as being the father of Computer Science and point
of fact, the… At the time Murray came in, there was a great deal of hostility in
liberal arts colleges against Computer Science.
GN:
Yea.
KMC:
And I could remember Don Calista saying that it’s too bad that Linus
wasn’t around to see the Computer Science program established and I sort of
thought to myself that if Linus was around, it never would’ve gotten established
because the faculty would be balking at it but when Murray came in, there was a
need. You know, they realized that we’re in trouble so I think they... that sort of
changed the attitudes. So it was this question of accepting it reluctantly.
GN:
Yea, but if you had not done those things in those days and we just tried to
remain a pure liberal arts without any, where would we be now? I mean, I
probably would not be here.
KMC:
Yea, yea.
GN:
So the survival really has been a good part of it. That would be one area.
And something else? You know, your accomplishments in terms of all the
classes that you’ve taught, there must be some satisfaction out of that. Have you
have an idea as to how many students you taught?
KMC:
No, no. Yea, I’ve had…
GN:
Thousands obviously.
KMC:
Yea, yea. Yea, but one of the problems with Mathematics is that it takes
forever to accomplish something in Mathematics. That the George Ball, who sort
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
24
of was the fault in him, forefather of a lot of things that have happened in
Computer Science. While his work went unread almost for about eighty years so
I sort of know that the trend of the future is that people in Mathematics are going
to be using the computer and I just wish that was more advanced but I don’t think
I know enough about the history of Mathematics that I’m not going to live long
enough to see it so…
GN:
Oh, you’re not feeling well? [Laughter]
KMC:
I’m feeling well. Just speaking, you know, seventy-five years for
something to occur so…
GN:
While I guess the other side of that is what would you wished have
happened and I think you’re saying it, that there would be more of an openness
for the integration of computers and Math.
KMC:
Yea, and I guess one of the things that sort of struck me as I’ve been
thinking about this is when I first came here, that was in ’62. That was about six
years after Sputnik.
GN:
Yea.
KMC:
And at that time, the United States was very much concerned about this
scientific and Mathematics train so you know, for example we… You know, the
Russians were able to put up Sputnik and what we put up didn’t work and it
ended up that we had all these… Ended up bringing in all these German
scientists to…
GN:
Move ahead in this.
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
25
KMC:
Move ahead in Mathematics and Science. So then the feeling was that
we had to prepare students, math students, for graduate school and that’s
what… I was very, you know, trying to say well okay, I was going to be in the
forefront in doing that but when I started teaching the students here, I realize that
it just wasn’t going to work out, that there was I think somebody said “It’s like to
put a German head on a British Body” but that’s what graduate school is. That
you’re taking dramatic ideas and you’re trying to put it on somebody who has a
British body if you want. So I realized that that wouldn’t work out and that’s
where I got into saying well here, I have the opportunity to do something with
computers and that hopefully, we could approach that in some sort of an
American fashion in this particular case over here. But the upshot was that, you
know, I had to go to graduate school to learn these courses that you just can’t
teach to American kids. I don’t think you could teach them to any other kids as
far as that’s concerned. But now, now we have all the faculty that we have.
They’ve all gone through graduate school and they’re all part of that particular
culture.
GN:
Yea.
KMC:
But the need right now from what I read is for Mathematics to become
aware of what’s going on at the secondary level. So here I had… I came from
the secondary level. I had to learn all these things about teaching abstract
courses which you can only teach to a very small minority of the population. And
now that I’m getting out, the need is for somebody who has a background with…
GN:
To go back to the high school. [Laughter]
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
26
KMC:
To be able to teach Math to high school kids and the feeling was that if
you learn the abstract stuff, you could pick up the stuff that you needed in high
school and I think they’re finding out that it doesn’t work that way, that they’re
really very much different mindsets that… In the graduate school, you’re
interested in proving theorems and at the high school level, you’re interested in
solving problems and if you can solve problems, you might not be able to prove
theorems and if you can prove theorems, you might not be able to solve
problems and that’s the… It’s very much a different mindset so…
GN:
Looking down the road for a future for Marist, what’s in your mind’s eye?
Do you see Marist continuing to profit by its location, which seems to be very
fortuitous? Or is it going to take distant learning roads? Will it be getting more
involved in distance learning and less students coming to campus or do you see
a balance there somehow?
KMC:
I really haven’t thought that much about it. I guess it’s just been one of
the things about people in Mathematics, we tend to be in our little ivory towers
[Laughter] so I tend to be, you know, concerned about what I was doing in
computer math and taking whatever I would need to be able to accomplish that.
I’d like to really continue doing something like that. As I mentioned, when I first
got started with computers at Marist in a serious sense, it was really in some sort
of a timesharing environment and I’d really like to be able to do something like
that, you know, with the accessibility now to be able to make the language that I
like and think is very powerful and to make that available to as poor of an
audience as possible. And I’d just like to do something like that and that would
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
27
be what I would be involved with and I’m not much… I really haven’t thought that
much about distance learning.
GN:
We’re on the verge and this we are, of a new class coming in Marist, it’s
more popular than ever it seems in the students who want to come here and
there are several reasons for that and certainly we have an attractive campus
and we’re well located. But on the other hand, we’re in a new age where we
could give courses to people far away. Are you more pleased with or you think
mathematicians are more pleased with a class in front of them or can you speak
to an empty box as it were or, you know, a picture and computer and have… Is it
effective to do it that way?
KMC:
I don’t know. I think that I probably need…
GN:
They need a teacher.
KMC:
Students to be there but then on the other hand, I… To think of what I’d
like to be able to do is to be able to set up some sort of a website if you want
where people could go and they could get whatever the information is. Now I
don’t think on that as being necessarily a course that I’m offering but I would
think of that more as being a way to sort of transmit information and knowledge
and that would be the way that I would be… You know, if that, that would be my
view, to set up some sort of a website and almost have out there the things that I
develop and if somebody’s interested in it, they have a way of accessing that
data and they would be…
GN:
You’d be more comfortable with that kind of approach to it?
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
28
KMC:
Yea, yea. So in that case, I really don’t know the people who might be
using it so in that sense it’s… But then it’s almost like trying to write a book, that
when you write a book you’re basically putting down something that somebody’s
going to read and they wouldn’t be there for you except that the, you know,
probably the experiences that you’ve had are based on teaching experiences.
GN:
Good. Finally, are there any things I didn’t ask or we didn’t touch that you’d
like to just add to this in terms of maybe what Marist has offered you,
opportunities, interpersonal friendships and relationships, a place to make your
place of work for the last forty years? Are you leaving it with, you know, a sense
of it was a good ride and you were happy to have been here?
KMC:
Yea, I would say it was a good ride. I think, again, at the last
departmental meeting, I was saying that I think sometimes people make a little bit
too much about the fact that, you know, Marist Brothers built Marist College and I
sort of use the analogy that when I was in charge of the computer center, the
professional staff that we had left and it ended up that I had three students who
were really running the computer center. One of them was Ross Mauri who’s
now a vice-president in IBM. Another one is Jeff Meisner, who’s a manager
down at IBM and the other fellow was Joe Evangelista and he said that he really
appreciated working in the computer center because if he didn’t do that he’d be
tossing pizzas. [Laughter] You know, trade his way through school so I… So the
way that I look on it, instead of doing some sort of another job, we had the… It
was great to be able to do something that was related to what you were going to
be doing later on so that’s a wonderful experience. And then certainly being able
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
29
to do something in an area like computing where that becomes important that
yea, that’s sort of a feeling and I probably feel sorry that the present faculty
doesn’t have that experience and it looks like they may not have that experience.
So yea, I would say that was a great run.
GN:
Good. Thank you very much Kevin.
KMC:
Thank you.
“END OF INTERVIEW”
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
1
John Martin “Kevin” Carolan
Marist College
Poughkeepsie, NY
Transcribed by Erin Kelly
For the Marist College Archives and Special Collections
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
2
Transcript: Kevin Carolan
Interviewee:
John Martin “Kevin” Carolan
Interviewer:
Gus Nolan
Interview date:
10 June 2002
Location:
Marist Archives and Special Collections Reading Room
CD No.:
Topic:
Marist College History
See Also:
MHP – Oral History <
http://library.marist.edu/archives/oral_history.html
>
Subject Headings:
Marist Brothers - United States - History
Marist College History
Marist College (Poughkeepsie, New York)
Marist College Social Aspects
Summary:
Within the following interview, Kevin Carolan speaks of his forty years
teaching at Marist College as an Associate Professor of Mathematics. Kevin Carolan
speaks of his early educational years and his introduction to Marist College through the
Marist Brothers at Esopus. After completing his undergraduate degree in mathematics at
Marist College and his graduate studies at Catholic University, Kevin Carolan returned to
Marist College in 1962 to teach mathematics. Among teaching most of the courses
offered in the Mathematics major within his forty year span at Marist, Kevin Carolan also
encouraged the cooperation between the college and IBM to improve Marist’s computer
technology. Within the interview, Kevin Carolan also speaks about the physical
development of the college as well as the leaderships of the college under former
President Linus Foy and President Dennis Murray. The interview ends with Kevin
Carolan’s stance on where he hopes Marist College will be in the future in terms of
distance learning.
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
3
“BEGINNING OF INTERVIEW”
Gus Nolan:
Good morning. This is an interview with Kevin Carolan, retired
Associate Professor of Mathematics at Marist College. The interview is being
done for the Archives of the college and today is June 10
th
. It’s about 10:30 in
the morning and we’re speaking to Professor Carolan. Good morning Kevin.
Kevin Carolan:
Good morning Gus.
GN:
Kevin, could you give us your full name please?
KMC:
My baptismal name is John Martin Carolan.
GN:
Were you named after any member of the family?
KMC:
Yes, my father’s name is John and my uncle was named Martin and he’s
my mother’s brother.
GN:
Where and when were you born?
KMC:
December 6, 1931 in New York City.
GN:
Okay, and the borough?
KMC:
Manhattan.
GN:
Manhattan, okay. Do you have any siblings?
KMC:
Yes.
GN:
And could you name them?
KMC:
I have a brother Peter who’s deceased and I have three sisters, Peggy,
Anne and Mary.
GN:
Okay, and your parents’ names and what did your father do?
KMC:
My father was a manager for the Service Transportation System, which
was the bus transportation system in New York City. He originally was the
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
4
doorman at the Plaza Hotel in New York but when World War II started, he went
to work for the Service Transportation Company and my mother was pretty much
a housewife. She did work part-time in the New York Ballet School cleaning in
the evenings.
GN:
And your mother’s name?
KMC:
Bridget Halley but she went by Delia so everybody knew her as Delia
although her baptismal name was Bridget.
GN:
Alright. What about your early education? Where did you go to grade
school and high school?
KMC:
I went to St. Anselm’s grade school in the south Bronx and then I went to
St. Anne’s Academy in New York City and I spent one year there and then I went
to Esopus across the river with the Marist Brothers.
GN:
So that’s your entrance into Marist Brothers, the beginning of the formation
program?
KMC:
That’s right.
GN:
And what year was that?
KMC:
That was 1947.
GN:
And do you recall any significant experiences while you were in Esopus?
Some of your dramatic performances at the house?
KMC:
Some of my… [Laughter] I played opposite Jep Lanning in
Breezy Money
so that was my…
GN:
Your high career? [Laughter]
KMC:
First and last stage performance.
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
5
GN:
Okay, and then when did you leave Esopus to come to Poughkeepsie?
KMC:
Well, we went… We actually went to Tyngsboro so we spent two years in
Esopus, sophomore and junior year and then we really had senior year in
Tyngsboro.
GN:
What year was that that you went up there?
KMC:
I guess maybe ’49.
GN:
’49 and ’50 in Tyngsboro?
KMC:
Yea.
GN:
And then you began your college life really when you came back to
Poughkeepsie as a Scholastic in ’50, ’51?
KMC:
Right.
GN:
Okay. While you were at the college here, at Marian College, do you have
outstanding remembrances of activities you had, keys, particular obligations that
you had to take care of?
KMC:
Yea, I used to take care of the grotto. That was the key that I had and I
guess it’s been changed now. It’s not the same as it was then and…
GN:
And what did you study while at the college? Your major?
KMC:
I majored in Mathematics.
GN:
And on completing your college courses here, did you graduate from
Marian or did you leave early?
KMC:
No, I graduated. I graduated in ’54.
GN:
Okay, and then what was your first teaching assignment?
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
6
KMC:
Well, my first assignment was really cooking. I cooked in Esopus for a
year and it ended up that there was some sort of a complication and ended up
that I ended up teaching Religion and Latin besides cooking so that was my…
GN:
In Esopus?
KMC:
In Esopus was my first teaching assignment.
GN:
And then going out to the Apostolate, to the schools? Where did you go
first?
KMC:
I went to Cardinal Hayes in the Bronx.
GN:
And for how long were you there?
KMC:
From ’55 to ’61.
GN:
And at what point do you go to Catholic University for graduate?
KMC:
’61.
GN:
In ’61?
KMC:
Yea and then I came to Marist in ’62.
GN:
Okay, let’s go back to your personal life outside the Marist Brothers. When
did you marry Donna? Donna is your wife I believe. [Laughter]
KMC:
That was August of 1974.
GN:
Okay. Can you say something about her and her background and her
career?
KMC:
Well, she’s from Montana. I was introduced to her through Marty Lang,
who did teach at Marist College and at that time was at Fairfield University and
he was in charge at the Religious Education Department at Fairfield and Donna
was going to Fairfield to get her Master’s degree in Religious Education and
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
7
about the same time that I left and Marty sort of was instrumental in introducing
us to each other so…
GN:
And what has she done since that in keeping with her Religious Education?
KMC:
Well, when we got married, she was a Religious Education coordinator at
St. Mary’s in Poughkeepsie. I forget for how long she was there as a… maybe
two years. Maybe two years. I don’t think it was three years that she was a
religious education coordinator. And then when Sean came along… Well it
couldn’t have been… She stayed at home full-time for both the birth of Sean and
Sarah. And then about the time that Sarah was five or six, Donna got a teaching
position at St. Mary’s School in Fishkill, New York and she was there for… I think
it was maybe three years or something at that time.
GN:
Alright. Now in the last ten years, what kind of work has she been doing?
KMC:
Well the last… After she left St. Mary’s in Fishkill, she became a principal
in St. Martin dePorres in Poughkeepsie and she did that for about six years and
then after that she was in charge of… She was a district Superintendent for
Dutchess and Ulster Counties and she did that until last year and this past year,
she’s been principaling St. Joseph’s Parish in Croton Falls.
KMC:
And what about the children? You mentioned Sean and Sarah.
GN:
Right.
KMC:
What are they doing now and what do they do?
GN:
Well, right now Sarah’s going for her Master’s in Elementary Ed at NYU and
Sean is a financial analyst for Louis Vuitton in lower Tennessee, which is a high
class holding company for companies that specialize in luxury goods.
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
8
GN:
Right.
KMC:
That’s what he’s doing.
GN:
Does he take care of your financial investments? [Laughter]
KMC:
No.
GN:
We’ll pass on that. Okay, let’s talk about your coming to Marist to teach.
How did that come about? Where were you and were you at C.U. and then you
were assigned to come to Marist to be a Mathematics instructor?
KMC:
Yea, I was at… Well, I taught at Cardinal Hayes from ’55 to ’61 and then
the understanding was that I would come to Marist.
GN:
Yes.
KMC:
So I went to… Gone to Catholic University to pursue some graduate
studies and then they were having some problems at Marist and it worked out
well for me that I come in ’62.
GN:
So in ’62 you came?
KMC:
Right, yea.
GN:
So then you retired this year so you had the full forty years.
KMC:
Full forty years, yea.
GN:
Let’s talk about your forty years at Marist and some of the outstanding
accomplishments that we could point to. Let’s start from the beginning. What
were some of the first assignments? You had teaching assignments and
committee work. Do you remember those things?
KMC:
Well, I… When I first came here, it was a very small department so it
ended up that I ended up teaching practically every course that we have for what
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
9
was offered, that we’d be offering. I think about the only ones that I didn’t teach
were Differential Equations and Geometry.
GN:
How many Mathematic majors were there in those years?
KMC:
Oh, we had a fairly good… We used to average about fifteen majors a
year. We had at that time, we probably had more majors than we do now even
though the college is a lot larger, we ended up having more majors. When I first
came here, there were a lot of student Brothers and there was a need for
Mathematics teachers so there was… It was fairly large. I think it was maybe
fifteen to twenty-five majors a year and I remember one year it got damaged and
maybe about twelve and I became very much concerned about it. But right now,
we have, maybe we average five or six a year. That’s about what we would have
so…
GN:
The two other areas I’m interested to hear you talk about, one is your
interest in computer technology and getting involved in computers and
languages, computer language. Can you say something about that? How did
that come about?
KMC:
That came about when I was teaching at, well probably at Cardinal
Hayes. I was very good friends with Larry Hanshumaker and he was very
interested in computers. At that time it was seen that, you know, the
mathematics of the future, you’re going to be using computers so that was very
much something that I was very interested in. I got interested in it almost from
the beginning and…
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
10
GN:
Well when you came to Marist, computers were not the thing that they were
to become in their significance.
KMC:
Well, we did have a computer and you could do things in Fortran for
Mathematics so I ended up learning Fortran and you know, the students… What I
had when I first came here, they would write programs in Fortran for things like
Statistics and so forth so we were able to use whatever was available at that
point in time. I think the… The advantage that I saw for Marist was that none of
the things about Mathematics or mathematicians tend to be exclusive. That it’s
looked on as being a sign of genius to be strong in math. If you’re strong in math
then you’re smarter than other people and I think with what the Marist traditions, I
thought a chance to make Mathematics more inclusive and I thought that
computers would be a way to do that. I thought with our heritage that we could
be in the fore front, sort of saying that, instead of being an exclusive discipline,
we’re going to try to make it as inclusive as we possibly can. So that’s part of the
reason that I very much became interested in it. I saw an opportunity to make
Mathematics more accessible to other people.
GN:
In those days it seems to me there were widespread opportunities for
seminars and courses that were given to faculty and administrators and to
secretarial staff just to get into… and you, I recall, played a part in that. Did you
not?
KMC:
Yea. Well, when I… This interest in computers goes back since certainly
from…
GN:
The Cardinal Hayes days?
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
11
KMC:
Yea, Cardinal Hayes and almost as soon as I started teaching, I felt that
that was the way to go and I guess I lost my train of thought now on it.
GN:
I was trying to put the teaching, the seminars that we had, the classes that
were given. I think you wrote a manual for some of that.
KMC:
Right, yea. Well, we ended up leapfrogging some computer generations,
that we went from the 1401, which was like almost in the dark ages of computers
and we jumped right into what you would call timesharing and in between we had
skipped a lot of steps that were occurring there. And it was a timesharing system
so you were actually able to access the computers so it was a question of
training faculty and the staff on how they could actually use the, you know…
GN:
To get into the big machine?
KMC:
To get into the big machine and what would be involved in that so that
was that.
GN:
And at that time Linus Foy was playing a part in this as well, was he not?
KMC:
Yea, Linus was... Linus was the President. He had been very much
involved I guess getting the 1401 and I guess with the financial situation, it was
tough at that time. So here we had a machine that we had paid for and was still
getting the paychecks out which is the most important thing. [Laughter]
GN:
Yea.
KMC:
So there was no reason to really get rid of it except that he realized that it
would have to change. So in the meantime when I became the Associate Dean
with Richard LaPietra, one of the first things that we try to do was to see what we
could do about upgrading the computer system and it ended up that Richard
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
12
referred me or I don’t know, to this Steve Dunwell, who was an IBM Fellow and
he was instrumental in developing the 360, which sort of set a standard for IBM
that took them a long time to, you know, to surpass. And as a result of the work
that he did for IBM, they made him a Fellow, which means that he can do
whatever he wants to and he decided to get into what you would call a shared
educational computer system, which they gave the acronym SECOS to. And I
was on that board of directors and at that time it seemed that the only way that
Marist could move to this technology would be to, you know, be part of some sort
of an educational cooperative with other schools and so forth. So I was on the
Board of Directors and eventually it reached the stage where SECOS couldn’t
make it with the organization that they had and then at that time, we had enough
use on Marist. Marist, where we were using enough things on a system, that we
ended up becoming a host for this shared educational computer system so that’s
how we moved. We moved form like the dark ages if you want, right into the…
GN:
The cutting edge kind of…
KMC:
To the cutting edge. So we had this computer system and it ended up
that Marist sort of took over what that shared educational computer system was
and we ended up hiring staff from there. We ended up hiring Cecil Denney, Ron
Rosen and a couple of the other people who were…
GN:
They were key in it.
KMC:
Who are on that staff and we ended up hiring those and they were
extremely talented and they were, you know, excellent in developing computer
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
13
systems. So they, for a minimal cost, were able to develop a very sophisticated
system for a college of our size.
GN:
Good. Let’s go back to that think that you just slipped in there. When Dr.
LaPietra became the Dean, there were two Associate Deans with him, you and
Jerry Cox.
KMC:
That’s right.
GN:
Okay, and what was your role? How did you see your role in those days as
an Associate Dean? What was your responsibility?
KMC:
Okay, I was responsible for Academic Services. So the Academic
Services that I was responsible for was for the computer center, the library, the
Registrar’s office and I was also responsible for institutional research. So they
were the areas that I…
GN:
Yea, yea.
KMC:
The administrative areas that I had responsibility for.
GN:
And also space.
KMC:
Space, [Laughter] yea, that’s right. I…
GN:
You were the space cadet actually.
KMC:
Yea, the…
GN:
Assignment of space in classrooms and all that.
KMC:
Yea, I…
GN:
You supervised the assignments of those things.
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
14
KMC:
Not so much the assignment, more the long-range planning that the… I
did a study on this with the needs, the physical space needs that we had for the
library and based on the basis of that study, Linus went ahead with the move…
GN:
From Donnelly to over here?
KMC:
The move the library from Donnelly to the Fontaine building, so that
was… And it was more the study that I had done, you know, saying how much
space we needed, how much we had, what the needs were, that Linus felt that
he had enough to go to the Board of Trustees and say that we have to go in this.
GN:
Were you there also when we moved to Western Printing? Was that part of
your experience?
KMC:
No.
GN:
The classrooms set up over in Western Printing and so that came after you
I guess then.
KMC:
Yea, yea. That was during Andrew’s time, Andrew Molloy.
GN:
Okay. Moving onto the development of the college, maybe we can talk
about a number of phases that we went through. We went through a core
program at one time. Well, before the core program, we had a student option of
choosing sixty credits of their own, sixty-sixty program, the department assigning
another sixty but then the department is the choosers. The student was allowed
to choose a good number of what they wanted to do.
KMC:
Right.
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
15
GN:
And then we moved from there to the core program. Were you in an
administrative post when this was going on or is this Lou Zuccarello’s area and
post-LaPietra?
KMC:
The sixty-sixty was during our era I think. You know, we had some sort of
a core and then we went to the sixty-sixty and I’m trying to think now…
GN:
It must be Lou then, that Zuccarello’s administration that actually
implemented that with the various breakdown in Philosophy, six credits in
Philosophy, six in Mathematics, six in Literature.
KMC:
Yea, I think so. I don’t recall that I was involved with that.
GN:
Right. When you were back in the classroom then, having left the
administrative role, you were there for the movement from the core then to the
divisions, the departments and then the divisions and then finally the schools.
Have you seen any impact of that change on the college and what would be your
comments about it? Did we gain something by doing that or lose something by
doing that?
KMC:
Well, I think that I very much appreciated coming to Marist when it was a
small college and where I would have relationships with a lot of people in
different…
GN:
A lot of interpersonal kinds of…
KMC:
And from a very broad, you know, you would know Historians and English
teachers and Religion teachers so I found that…
GN:
We had some outstanding English teachers as I recall in that time.
KMC:
That’s right. [Laughter]
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
16
GN:
Yes.
KMC:
I guess I found that moving to things like the divisions that we sort of lost
that but I guess maybe that was inevitable but I think yea, it gives you a very
different sort of feel for the college that now I’m in a school where you really have
Mathematics, which most people treat as a liberal art and probably the, you
know, the feeling that most mathematicians would have would be towards the
liberal art and we’re in a school with computer scientists who end up being, you
know, really professional and not having an understanding for the liberal arts. A
lot of them haven’t come from a liberal arts environment so they only know, you
know, that sort of professional atmosphere if you want.
GN:
Okay, another development of the college would be the physical, the
McCann Center and then from the McCann Center, the library, the new Fontaine
building, the Lowell Thomas. Where were you in the process of some of these?
Where were you when the McCann building was going up? Were you in an
administrative post? Were you on any decisions about that?
KMC:
No, no. I wasn’t involved in that. I think for the first part of my tenure in
administration, I think from ’69 to ’76, I was with Richard LaPietra and for the last
part, from about ’76 to ’79, Lou Zuccarello was the academic dean at that point in
time and when he was the academic dean, I was responsible for the computer
center. I wasn’t responsible for the library at that time. Vince Tuscano…
GN:
I see.
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
17
KMC:
Had taken over that and yea, so primarily it was the computer center that I
was responsible for and that would’ve been part of the transit, transition moving,
you know, getting SECOS people on board, supervising that…
GN:
As you look at the college now, what strikes you as some of the biggest
physical changes, the most impressive, you’re surprised that this happened?
Would it be Fontaine, Lowell Thomas, the library? Where would you see the
greatest…?
KMC:
Oh, I guess the library would have to be the most striking change. I think
going from the library that I knew as a student and then when I came here and
the library was the current computer center in Donnelly Hall and then to have it
move from there to Fontaine, which we looked on as being a big jump at that
point in time and then the going to the place across the street for, you know, for
the foundry and then come back, yea, that would be certainly…
GN:
And then when you were a student, where was the library?
KMC:
It was in the President’s [Laughter] building.
GN:
The third floor in Fontaine.
KMC:
Yea, yea.
GN:
Now they have the Greystone rather.
KMC:
Yea, it was the Greystone building.
GN:
Yea, okay. Let’s talk about the students. When you first came here, you
were talking about a lot of the students were really Marist Brothers in training
although they were, began to expand I think about in 1960 or so to lay students
coming in as well. Can you describe what you would say to be the character of
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
18
those students and their traditions versus what you have experienced in your last
year of teaching? Is there a big contrast in that?
KMC:
Well, yea there would be because of the student Brothers. You know,
when I first came here they were… You know, I’m certain that most of the
classes that I had, I would say there was a very high percentage so they gave a
certain dimension which a certain feel like that you would have that you don’t
have now. You don’t have that…
GN:
Well, they didn’t have any women in those classes, did they?
KMC:
Yea, we started taking in women, not when I first… I forget what year we
started taking in women. It maybe was about ’66, somewhere around there but
it… In the beginning, yea, there were no women. Yea, so those changes were…
GN:
And now they dominate. I mean, more than fifty percent of the student
body would be women.
KMC:
Yea, yea. But I…
GN:
Do you think they’re as well trained now for your classes in Mathematics as
they were then or do you have to do more remedial work now or are they more
advanced?
KMC:
They’re certainly not more advanced. You know, it ends up that I’m sort
of teaching different courses now than when I first started here. When I first
started here I was teaching a lot of courses for Math… A lot of courses for
Mathematics majors. Now I don’t teach that many courses for Mathematics
majors so there’s been a change of the courses that I teach and it’s one of the
things that’s happened to Mathematics that, you know… I think I mentioned that
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
19
we had maybe fifteen majors so you would end up teaching two or three upper-
level Math courses. Well now, pretty much there aren’t enough upper-level Math
courses to go around the department so you might teach an upper-level Math
course every other year if you’re lucky. So there’s been a change in that way
and I guess I could remember when I came here that one of the… There was a
lot of concerns about one of the teachers who was teaching Statistics and that
still is a problem right now but you know, you know what’s being taught, how it’s
being taught and stuff like that.
GN:
Yea.
KMC:
So some of those things, you know a change but it’s not like I’m teaching
the same sort of Mathematics that I was when I first came here.
GN:
Well, a subject like Statistics is applied in various fields.
KMC:
That’s right.
GN:
You know, you have Communication people do it for polling…
KMC:
Right.
GN:
And the Psychologists do it for their own reasons…
KMC:
Right.
GN:
So it’s kind of a different focus sometimes…
KMC:
Right. That’s right.
GN:
As to what the content would be, you know, what they emphasize.
KMC:
Right, yea, yea. So…
GN:
Now on a large scale also, would you care to offer us some of your
observations about a contrasting in the two presidents that you knew so well like
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
20
Dr. Foy and President Murray. Let’s talk about Foy. What do you think Foy’s
greatest contributions were to the college?
KMC:
Well, I think he was an educator and I think he really encouraged the
faculty to develop and I think he really did develop the faculty.
GN:
He took the college from where Paul left it in ’58 and brought it to ’70, ’58,
’68, ’78. Twenty years and in that time made some…
KMC:
Yea and as far as I was concerned, he was very much a kindred spirit. In
fact, he had the he had the same attitudes towards computing that I did. In fact, I
guess I was speaking to Artin one day and I said something and he said “You
sound just like Richard Foy.”
GN:
Yea.
KMC:
And so, in one sense I…
GN:
Verified what your feeling was…
KMC:
Yea, yea. So I…
GN:
Was Foy open to the faculty? Were you allowed to… Did you make an
appointment to go see him or could you… Was he available? Did he come to the
lunch room? Did you see him in the corridors? Was Foy around as you recall?
KMC:
Yea, yea. Yea, I thought he was available. The college was small at that
time so there weren’t that many…
GN:
Big responsibilities.
KMC:
There weren’t that many buildings and so forth so, yea. I think the fact
that, you know, I was a Marist Brother and he was a Marist Brother at the same
time so I might’ve had more of an advantage than other people to... So…
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
21
GN:
Okay, and Dr. Murray. How do you see him as the President and the
leadership under his domain? What would be one of the key points that Murray
has brought to the college?
KMC:
Well, I think he was able to capitalize on a lot of the work that Linus did.
Certainly the work that Linus did in computing.
GN:
Such as the IBM?
KMC:
Yea, well actually getting, you know, moving toward where we were in the
position of having a very sophisticated machine and we were actually offering
courses and so forth so that when Murray came in and said that he wanted to go
in the direction of Computer Science, we already had approval for the courses so
it really didn’t take much to, you know, to come in with that particular part. I think
I’d say Murray is better at development, raising funds than Linus was. I
understand that he has a very good reputation for that, you know, outside of
Marist, has been a great fundraiser. But then I don’t think he’s quite the educator
that Linus was and I don’t think he’s developed a faculty to the stage that I
thought Linus did.
GN:
Can you correct or confirm an idea that I have here? Did Marist make itself
available for IBM employees in setting up specific courses, bringing them here
and making the campus available like in the summer programs and the night
programs. Do you remember anything about that in the course of time?
KMC:
The only thing I recall is that one of the graduates when I first came here
sort of complimented me or Linus about the fact that we were offering these
courses and that gave these IBMer’s the chance to get degrees and that was
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
22
something that Linus had done and I think he had pushed but he already… That
was already in place by the time that I got here. So my recollection of that time
was that it was more in providing the opportunity for IBM employees to get a
degree and, you know, Marist went out of its way to do that I think in the evening
and so forth that I guess Vassar wasn’t interested in and probably New Paltz
wasn’t in a position to do it. So that was something that…
GN:
Yea, yea.
KMC:
So I’m conscious of that. I can sort of remember the fellow who sort of
thanked me but I really didn’t have anything to do with it. Linus already had that
set up.
GN:
Good. From your perspective now, as you retire officially even though you’ll
continue to teach, you’ll look back at over forty years. What would you say were
maybe two or three of the most significant contributions you feel you made?
How have you… What satisfaction do you get out of having been here for forty
years? Would it be in some of the administrative things you did or the general
classroom opportunities that students you taught, the classes? Is there any area
that you are very satisfied with?
KMC:
Well, I guess I’d have to be satisfied with the way, you know, the
computing has developed at Marist but that’s been sort of bittersweet, that
there’s a part of it that I’m not satisfied with that I figured out departmental party
that at the last meeting, Lynn gave an opening presentation and she said that I
was really the father of Computer Science at Marist College, that I had sort of
designed the courses, taught the courses. In the beginning I was really doing
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
23
pretty much everything that was required to keep that going and I guess the… I
never really thought of myself as being the father of Computer Science and point
of fact, the… At the time Murray came in, there was a great deal of hostility in
liberal arts colleges against Computer Science.
GN:
Yea.
KMC:
And I could remember Don Calista saying that it’s too bad that Linus
wasn’t around to see the Computer Science program established and I sort of
thought to myself that if Linus was around, it never would’ve gotten established
because the faculty would be balking at it but when Murray came in, there was a
need. You know, they realized that we’re in trouble so I think they... that sort of
changed the attitudes. So it was this question of accepting it reluctantly.
GN:
Yea, but if you had not done those things in those days and we just tried to
remain a pure liberal arts without any, where would we be now? I mean, I
probably would not be here.
KMC:
Yea, yea.
GN:
So the survival really has been a good part of it. That would be one area.
And something else? You know, your accomplishments in terms of all the
classes that you’ve taught, there must be some satisfaction out of that. Have you
have an idea as to how many students you taught?
KMC:
No, no. Yea, I’ve had…
GN:
Thousands obviously.
KMC:
Yea, yea. Yea, but one of the problems with Mathematics is that it takes
forever to accomplish something in Mathematics. That the George Ball, who sort
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
24
of was the fault in him, forefather of a lot of things that have happened in
Computer Science. While his work went unread almost for about eighty years so
I sort of know that the trend of the future is that people in Mathematics are going
to be using the computer and I just wish that was more advanced but I don’t think
I know enough about the history of Mathematics that I’m not going to live long
enough to see it so…
GN:
Oh, you’re not feeling well? [Laughter]
KMC:
I’m feeling well. Just speaking, you know, seventy-five years for
something to occur so…
GN:
While I guess the other side of that is what would you wished have
happened and I think you’re saying it, that there would be more of an openness
for the integration of computers and Math.
KMC:
Yea, and I guess one of the things that sort of struck me as I’ve been
thinking about this is when I first came here, that was in ’62. That was about six
years after Sputnik.
GN:
Yea.
KMC:
And at that time, the United States was very much concerned about this
scientific and Mathematics train so you know, for example we… You know, the
Russians were able to put up Sputnik and what we put up didn’t work and it
ended up that we had all these… Ended up bringing in all these German
scientists to…
GN:
Move ahead in this.
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
25
KMC:
Move ahead in Mathematics and Science. So then the feeling was that
we had to prepare students, math students, for graduate school and that’s
what… I was very, you know, trying to say well okay, I was going to be in the
forefront in doing that but when I started teaching the students here, I realize that
it just wasn’t going to work out, that there was I think somebody said “It’s like to
put a German head on a British Body” but that’s what graduate school is. That
you’re taking dramatic ideas and you’re trying to put it on somebody who has a
British body if you want. So I realized that that wouldn’t work out and that’s
where I got into saying well here, I have the opportunity to do something with
computers and that hopefully, we could approach that in some sort of an
American fashion in this particular case over here. But the upshot was that, you
know, I had to go to graduate school to learn these courses that you just can’t
teach to American kids. I don’t think you could teach them to any other kids as
far as that’s concerned. But now, now we have all the faculty that we have.
They’ve all gone through graduate school and they’re all part of that particular
culture.
GN:
Yea.
KMC:
But the need right now from what I read is for Mathematics to become
aware of what’s going on at the secondary level. So here I had… I came from
the secondary level. I had to learn all these things about teaching abstract
courses which you can only teach to a very small minority of the population. And
now that I’m getting out, the need is for somebody who has a background with…
GN:
To go back to the high school. [Laughter]
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
26
KMC:
To be able to teach Math to high school kids and the feeling was that if
you learn the abstract stuff, you could pick up the stuff that you needed in high
school and I think they’re finding out that it doesn’t work that way, that they’re
really very much different mindsets that… In the graduate school, you’re
interested in proving theorems and at the high school level, you’re interested in
solving problems and if you can solve problems, you might not be able to prove
theorems and if you can prove theorems, you might not be able to solve
problems and that’s the… It’s very much a different mindset so…
GN:
Looking down the road for a future for Marist, what’s in your mind’s eye?
Do you see Marist continuing to profit by its location, which seems to be very
fortuitous? Or is it going to take distant learning roads? Will it be getting more
involved in distance learning and less students coming to campus or do you see
a balance there somehow?
KMC:
I really haven’t thought that much about it. I guess it’s just been one of
the things about people in Mathematics, we tend to be in our little ivory towers
[Laughter] so I tend to be, you know, concerned about what I was doing in
computer math and taking whatever I would need to be able to accomplish that.
I’d like to really continue doing something like that. As I mentioned, when I first
got started with computers at Marist in a serious sense, it was really in some sort
of a timesharing environment and I’d really like to be able to do something like
that, you know, with the accessibility now to be able to make the language that I
like and think is very powerful and to make that available to as poor of an
audience as possible. And I’d just like to do something like that and that would
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
27
be what I would be involved with and I’m not much… I really haven’t thought that
much about distance learning.
GN:
We’re on the verge and this we are, of a new class coming in Marist, it’s
more popular than ever it seems in the students who want to come here and
there are several reasons for that and certainly we have an attractive campus
and we’re well located. But on the other hand, we’re in a new age where we
could give courses to people far away. Are you more pleased with or you think
mathematicians are more pleased with a class in front of them or can you speak
to an empty box as it were or, you know, a picture and computer and have… Is it
effective to do it that way?
KMC:
I don’t know. I think that I probably need…
GN:
They need a teacher.
KMC:
Students to be there but then on the other hand, I… To think of what I’d
like to be able to do is to be able to set up some sort of a website if you want
where people could go and they could get whatever the information is. Now I
don’t think on that as being necessarily a course that I’m offering but I would
think of that more as being a way to sort of transmit information and knowledge
and that would be the way that I would be… You know, if that, that would be my
view, to set up some sort of a website and almost have out there the things that I
develop and if somebody’s interested in it, they have a way of accessing that
data and they would be…
GN:
You’d be more comfortable with that kind of approach to it?
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
28
KMC:
Yea, yea. So in that case, I really don’t know the people who might be
using it so in that sense it’s… But then it’s almost like trying to write a book, that
when you write a book you’re basically putting down something that somebody’s
going to read and they wouldn’t be there for you except that the, you know,
probably the experiences that you’ve had are based on teaching experiences.
GN:
Good. Finally, are there any things I didn’t ask or we didn’t touch that you’d
like to just add to this in terms of maybe what Marist has offered you,
opportunities, interpersonal friendships and relationships, a place to make your
place of work for the last forty years? Are you leaving it with, you know, a sense
of it was a good ride and you were happy to have been here?
KMC:
Yea, I would say it was a good ride. I think, again, at the last
departmental meeting, I was saying that I think sometimes people make a little bit
too much about the fact that, you know, Marist Brothers built Marist College and I
sort of use the analogy that when I was in charge of the computer center, the
professional staff that we had left and it ended up that I had three students who
were really running the computer center. One of them was Ross Mauri who’s
now a vice-president in IBM. Another one is Jeff Meisner, who’s a manager
down at IBM and the other fellow was Joe Evangelista and he said that he really
appreciated working in the computer center because if he didn’t do that he’d be
tossing pizzas. [Laughter] You know, trade his way through school so I… So the
way that I look on it, instead of doing some sort of another job, we had the… It
was great to be able to do something that was related to what you were going to
be doing later on so that’s a wonderful experience. And then certainly being able
Interviewee: Kevin Carolan June 10, 2002
Interviewer: Gus Nolan MHP
29
to do something in an area like computing where that becomes important that
yea, that’s sort of a feeling and I probably feel sorry that the present faculty
doesn’t have that experience and it looks like they may not have that experience.
So yea, I would say that was a great run.
GN:
Good. Thank you very much Kevin.
KMC:
Thank you.
“END OF INTERVIEW”